MARIOLATRY

[Azriel]

Priscilla -

I think its essential to this thread that you clarify your beliefs about the dead.

I believe you are saying that when a person dies that their soul does not immediately go to heaven/hell (or in a Catholic view purgatory) .. but the person is essentially dormant until the second coming when the body is ressurected?

Did I get that right?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 7 2005, 05:30 PM'] What do you mean, what traditions aren't in Scripture?  Sorry - I'm not with you there!

I believe that when I drifted away from the Lord in my teenage years there were living people praying for me: and their prayers were answered because I came back to the Lord.

But the dead know not anything - the Lord says "For in death there is no rememberence of Thee: in the grave who shall give Thee thanks" (Psalm 6:5)

and again "The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence" (Psalm 115:17)

and again "And no man hath ascended up to heave" (John 3:13) [/quote]
Actually, the psalms were written before Heaven was opened, so these would be referring to two places, either Hell or Limbo. In Hell, which I believe is what is truly meant by dead (because that is where spiritual death is), there is no praise of God.

As for Limbo...it is arguable that there was a certain dormancy...not a cessation of existance, but a dormancy...in which there may have been no praising.

However, I believe the psalms are referring "to those who go down into the depths" and those "in the depths of the netherworld."

[Priscilla]

[quote name='Azriel' date='Apr 7 2005, 05:02 PM'] Priscilla -

I think its essential to this thread that you clarify your beliefs about the dead.

I believe you are saying that when a person dies that their soul does not immediately go to heaven/hell (or in a Catholic view purgatory) .. but the person is essentially dormant until the second coming when the body is ressurected?

Did I get that right? [/quote]
Yes - that's right.

It's like sleep - you have no conciousness of time.

So when we die, our next conscious moment will be before the Lord.

[Priscilla]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Apr 7 2005, 05:41 PM'] Actually, the psalms were written before Heaven was opened, so these would be referring to two places, either Hell or Limbo. In Hell, which I believe is what is truly meant by dead (because that is where spiritual death is), there is no praise of God.

As for Limbo...it is arguable that there was a certain dormancy...not a cessation of existance, but a dormancy...in which there may have been no praising.

However, I believe the psalms are referring "to those who go down into the depths" and those "in the depths to the netherworld." [/quote]
Hmm....yes I see what you mean a little.

I may get back to you on that, God willing. I'm away for a few days.

Thanks for all your replies everyone. I shall be thinking about it.

The Lord bless you all.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 7 2005, 06:48 PM'] Hmm....yes I see what you mean a little.

I may get back to you on that, God willing. I'm away for a few days.

Thanks for all your replies everyone. I shall be thinking about it.

The Lord bless you all. [/quote]
That's okay, I'm away for the weekend starting tomorrow, anyway.

[Archangel]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 7 2005, 12:08 PM']I don't know what Sola Scriptura is.  I'm not very au-faith with Catholic terminology - forgive me.  Is it "only Scripture"?

If so I like that tradition because I can be confident that the commandments  in Scripture is pleasing to God.[/quote]
Sola Scriptura is not a Catholic belief. It is belief that is only 500 years old, borne out of the Protestant Reformation.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 7 2005, 06:55 PM'] Well that's my problem - I believe only God is to be worshipped. [/quote]
Only God is worshipped.
That has always been Catholic belief

How do you define worship?

[Brother Adam]

How many times has this thread gone in circles?

[jezic]

a few

[Sinner]

Priscila,
I like you. You are kind and civil and seem genuinely curious. Keep your search for Truth.... It will find you.

Peace.

[Guest blu143]

We do not worship Mary. We merely use her as an intermediary between us an Jesus. This practice has been approved and encouraged by the Church.

As far as worshiping statues, we don't do that either. But statues are a sacrament in order to bring us closer to God. Why should we not kneel before a statue of Mary? We kneel before statues of Christ everytime we sit down for Mass.

The wedding at Cana is proof that Christ cannot ignore a request from her Son. Even though Christ was reluctant to perform the miracle, he did so for His Mother.

Why then should we not ask Mary to intercede on our behalf in order to acheive that which we ask from God?

[ardillacid]

[QUOTE]"But the dead know not anything"

Actually, in the book of Revelations it is made quite clear. We see the martyrs in heaven beseaching the Lord to do justice to those who do evil to the Christians on earth. If, once we are dead, we become oblivious to all occurences on earth, how did these martyrs know that there were atrocities happening?

[Priscilla]

[quote name='Archangel' date='Apr 8 2005, 01:25 AM'] Sola Scriptura is not a Catholic belief. It is belief that is only 500 years old, borne out of the Protestant Reformation. [/quote]
Oh - I didn't know that. Well there's a lot to be said for it "Only Scripture" surely?

Didn't a lot of Catholics get very annoyed when the Reformers wanted to make the Bible avaialbe to ordinary men and women because they were getting worried that once people started to read teh bible for themselves, they would see that there's nothing in there at all about Mariolatry, and Indulgences and so on and so forth?

I mean, that's what they were getting worried about and why they burnt these people at the stake wasn't it?

However, it seems their fear was unfounded, because even though Catholics can read Scripture for themselves, they still believe in all the tradition and it has continued and not died out.

[Priscilla]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Apr 8 2005, 06:27 AM'] Only God is worshipped.
That has always been Catholic belief

How do you define worship? [/quote]
I define worship as serving and paying homage: I would gladly fall down on my face at the feet of our Lord Jesus.

Also it goes much deeper than that: our whole life is to be worship (righteous acts) - all that we do or think: our very motives - to be driven by our love for God (the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ).

[Priscilla]

[quote name='Sinner' date='Apr 8 2005, 11:47 PM'] Priscila,
I like you. You are kind and civil and seem genuinely curious. Keep your search for Truth.... It will find you.

Peace. [/quote]
Thank you. You are all very kind and civil too: thanks for looking at this with me everyone.

[Priscilla]

[quote name='blu143' date='Apr 10 2005, 01:15 PM'] We do not worship Mary. We merely use her as an intermediary between us an Jesus. This practice has been approved and encouraged by the Church.

As far as worshiping statues, we don't do that either. But statues are a sacrament in order to bring us closer to God. Why should we not kneel before a statue of Mary? We kneel before statues of Christ everytime we sit down for Mass.

The wedding at Cana is proof that Christ cannot ignore a request from her Son. Even though Christ was reluctant to perform the miracle, he did so for His Mother.

Why then should we not ask Mary to intercede on our behalf in order to acheive that which we ask from God? [/quote]
I guess because it's not in Scripture.

I don't like to think of myself as a "protestant" because there's much in protestantism I dislike, but I guess I'm one of those "Sola Scriptura" types - there's nothing in Scripture to say I need an intermediary between me and the Lord Jesus: I can go straight to the Lord Jesus, and straight to the Father through the Lord Jesus.

No-one has answered my question: As much as I love the mother of our Lord (I prefer her Hebrew name: "Miriam"), I do not believe she is (i) omniscient; or (ii) omnipresent.

Only God is these. So how come she can hear the prayers of millions of Catholics worldwide if she is neither of these things?

This is the other thing that bothers me (apart from the fact it is not mentioned in Scripture).

Also, the Jews do not have ANY images/graven images in the synagogues AT ALL.

It is forbidden.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 11 2005, 05:29 PM'] Oh - I didn't know that.  Well there's a lot to be said for it "Only Scripture" surely? [/quote]
Unfortunately, stereotypes fuel Protestantism.

What I don't like about Sola Scriptura is that nowhere in scripture is it supported. If the scriptures don't support the idea that scripture alone should be relied upon, then it is a non-scriptural tradition...essentially...a self-defeating contradiction.

[quote]Didn't a lot of Catholics get very annoyed when the Reformers wanted to make the Bible avaialbe to ordinary men and women because they were getting worried that once people started to read teh bible for themselves, they would see that there's nothing in there at all about Mariolatry, and Indulgences and so on and so forth?[/quote]

In fact, there was a Catholic Cardinal who was working on translating the vulgate into the vernacular at the time when another man tried to beat him for business.

Furthermore, the reason that books were not translated into the vernacular was because the printing press was a new invention and there had not yet been enough time. Why would the Church bother making the vernacular in the form of manuscripts if it would have been so expensive (because manuscripts were expensive, since they were hand-made) that the only people who could afford them would have spoken Latin anyway? The literacy rate was very low and only the nobles could read, and when they read, they read in Latin. Why was the literacy rate low? Because the printing press was not yet invented and there was no material by which others could learn written language. Before the printing press, translating the Bible into vernacular would have been silly and a waste of time and money. However, right after the invention of the printing press, the Church did start work on vernacular Bibles (there were, in fact, a few vernacular manuscripts, but they were not widespread).

What is true is that the Catholic Church, realizing that most people could not read the Bible (which was beyond its control, but was in the hands of Johann Gutenberg), invented massive numbers of artistic representations of Biblical stories in order to get the points of the Bible across to those who could not read it. The Church most certainly was not against spreading the word of God.

[quote]I mean, that's what they were getting worried about and why they burnt these people at the stake wasn't it?[/quote]

Furthermore, there was significantly less burning people at the stake than the likes of Jack Chick would want you to believe.

[quote]However, it seems their fear was unfounded, because even though Catholics can read Scripture for themselves, they still believe in all the tradition and it has continued and not died out.[/quote]

There was no fear there. The only concern was in being careful to translate accurately once there was an actual reason to allow the vernacular. That is a reasonable concern.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 11 2005, 05:40 PM'] I guess because it's not in Scripture.

I don't like to think of myself as a "protestant" because there's much in protestantism I dislike, but I guess I'm one of those "Sola Scriptura" types - there's nothing in Scripture to say I need an intermediary between me and the Lord Jesus:  I can go straight to the Lord Jesus, and straight to the Father through the Lord Jesus. [/quote]
But there is something in scripture saying that you CAN...and I fail to see why any of us would want to ignore a chance God gives us to grow closer to Him.

[quote]No-one has answered my question:  As much as I love the mother of our Lord (I prefer her Hebrew name:  "Miriam"), I do not believe she is (i) omniscient; or (ii) omnipresent. [/quote]

She does not have to be. Creation is not infinite. There is a difference between saying that Mary is omniscient or omnipresent and that she knows a very large amount and has a very great spiritual presence. She does not hear infinite prayers (only God can hold infinity), but by the will of God, there is no reason that she can't hear an insanely large number of prayers.

[quote]This is the other thing that bothers me (apart from the fact it is not mentioned in Scripture).

Also, the Jews do not have ANY images/graven images in the synagogues AT ALL.

It is forbidden.[/quote]

I've seen stained-glass in synogogues.

Regardless, modern Judaism is far from the roots of Christianity. Let's not look at modern synagogues...they're irrelevent...let's look at the temple. There were MANY icons and statues there.

[jezic]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 11 2005, 04:40 PM'] I
No-one has answered my question: As much as I love the mother of our Lord (I prefer her Hebrew name: "Miriam"), I do not believe she is (i) omniscient; or (ii) omnipresent.

Only God is these. So how come she can hear the prayers of millions of Catholics worldwide if she is neither of these things?

[/quote]


How do you pray for more than one person?

I think the difference here is that in death, the laws that govern our lives don't apply anymore. The spiritual world is much different than this one. What is possible there is prolly not possible here.



By honoring these people like Mary we honor God. We acknolwedge his goodness working in their souls. That is not wrong.

[jezic]

besides, God could have granted her that grace. He can do many things, anything actually except maybe hate.