MARIOLATRY

[Paladin D]

[b]Priscilla[/b], welcome to Phatmass. Enjoy your stay.

Many of us are converts to the Catholic faith, including me.

[scardella]

we're going way off-topic with this, but to clarify:

Catholics believe that during Mass when the priest, [i]in persona Christi[/i], says "This is My Body...This is My Blood..." (the Consecration), its substance transforms (hence, transubstantiation) into the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ. However, it retains the APPEARANCE, including taste, size, texture, etc., of bread and wine. This is why it is known as an unbloody sacrifice.

To complicate things more, when we celebrate Mass, there is only one sacrifice, ever. All Masses (Masses here used for the sake of convenience) including the Last Supper are a re-presentation of Jesus' Sacrifice on Calvary. We believe that all the faithful are made present to His Death on the Cross.

Then, we get to eat Jesus and be literally incorporated into the Body of Christ, and, hence, His Sacrifice, Grace upon Grace upon Grace Eternal... When we consume Him, He's really consuming us... interesting thought, huh?

Shouldn't this be a new thread?? Don't you just love capitalizing everything to do with Jesus Christ, Son of God, Son of Man, Word Incarnate, Life Eternal, Living Water, Daily Bread, King of kings, Lord of lords, Prince of Peace...?

[Myles Domini]

This is off topic but I thought since its related to what y'all are currently discussing...Why not? [url="http://www.cmns.mnegri.it/miracolo/welcome.html"]http://www.cmns.mnegri.it/miracolo/welcome.html[/url]

[Paphnutius]

Good to see you back Myles.

[thessalonian]

[quote]Yes I know and believe that - but the bread doesn't become actual flesh in you mouth and the wine doesn't become actual blood.[/quote]

Just because we cannot percieve it with our senses does not mean it is not a reality. Do you believe that an axe floated? Do you believe that a man walked on water (Peter)? Do you believe that the dead were raised, the sick and lame healed, that the red sea parted and became dry land? Do you believe that Jesus turned a few loaves and fish in to enough to feed 5000 men? Or that God could raise sons of abraham from stones? Well then you must believe that Jesus could make some bread and wine in to his flesh and blood and make it so we cannot percieve the change and just take his words on faith.

[quote]Jesus said Himself that His words were "spirit" and "life".[/quote]

His words are spirit and life. What does that mean in the context of the passage. It means that we need to believe what he is saying. That believing in what he says brings life to the soul. It does not mean that he is contradicting what he previously said when he said "MY FLESH IS TRUE FOOD...MY BLOOD IS TRUE DRINK". He does not tell his disciples, hold on a minute, your taking me literally. I am just talking about spiritual bread. It's just bread.



[quote]To take the bread and wine is to spiritually take the Body and Blood (Life) of our Lord.[/quote]

Paritally true. Surely it is spiritual food for our souls.
. but you cannot ignore the literalness of John 6 as quoted above.
The life is in the blood: that's why we should not eat blood and it was forbidden to both Noah and to Moses. Four times in John 6 he makes it quite clear that he is to be taken literally. The Jews (how can he give us his flesh to eat) and his own disciples took him literally and noone stopped them from leaving over it.


[quote]The only Blood we are to drink is the Blood of the Lord Jesus in the wine. But it doesn't actually turn into literal blood. [/quote]

This was a part of the sacrificial law and not a part of the moral law (see lev 10,17). The Jews were forbidden from drinking blood. But Christ also showed in Matt 5 that he could modify the law. "you have heard....but I say.....". Now in this case the blood contains the life of Christ and that is the life we want in us. Not the life of animals. Secondly I would like to say that I find it very unlikely that Christ would command something even symbolically that was immoral. I don't know of anywhere he did something like that. Symbolically murder someone or symbolically committ adultery.

Hope that helps.

God bless

[jezic]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 14 2005, 07:45 AM'] Yes I know and believe that - but the bread doesn't become actual flesh in you mouth and the wine doesn't become actual blood.

[/quote]
I think you have that a little wrong. After the prayer of Consecration, though it appears the same, the entire substance of the bread is changed.

Jesus in the new covenant fullfilled the Passover. In the old it was just bread, in the new the Bread of Eteral Life. It becomes His Body.

Though it still looks like bread, at the core substance it is flesh. He says unless "you eat my body and drink my blood you shall not have life within you". He meant this as he said it.

Even in early times, the bread still looked like bread but it became his Body.

If you don't think it literally is, go to Adoration at a Catholic Church. Stay there for a while (maybe several hours). If you are sincere, it will change your mind.

[Priscilla]

What's "Adoration"?

Anyhow - yes we are wildly off topic: can't a Moderator parsate the bits about transubstatiation into a new thread?

But I don't mind being off topic if no-one else does.

To get back on topic, I still find Mariolatry difficult: I shall always hold Mary in my heart and am happy to call her blessed: she is indeed.

But as to kneeling beofre a statue\picture and praying to her I'm afraid I cannot. Not out of disrespect to her: I would gladly who her honour and respect if she were before me: but because in my conscience I still perceive it as idolatry.

I trust that God, in His mercy, will understand this and the sincere motives of my heart about it.

Thank you all for looking at it with me everyone. Anymore comments will be gratefully received if anyone has any more thoughts on it.

The Lord bless you all.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 14 2005, 03:22 PM'] What's "Adoration"? [/quote]
Adoration is worship of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament.

[quote]But as to kneeling beofre a statue\picture and praying to her I'm afraid I cannot.  Not out of disrespect to her:  I would gladly who her honour and respect if she were before me:  but because in my conscience I still perceive it as idolatry.[/quote]

Do you ever kneel in front of your Bible when you read it? Do you kiss pictures of loved ones? I don't understand how this is any different. It's certainly not worship. If the only thing keeping you back is a nagging feeling that maybe it's wrong, then I would say you may just have scrupulosity.

[quote]I trust that God, in His mercy, will understand this and the sincere motives of my heart about it.[/quote]

God is merciful, but I sense that there is something else. You would mention no need for God's mercy in this unless you thought that maybe we were right. Many people have a hard time praying the rosary and such. I'm very scrupulous and Satan tells me constantly that I'm worshipping Mary when I pray the rosary, but I know that it's not worship...that's just him trying to get me to stop.

I recommend you study a little bit on St. Louis de Montfort, if for nothing more than to understand Catholicism a bit better.

[quote]The Lord bless you all.[/quote]

And you.

[thessalonian]

[quote]But as to kneeling beofre a statue\picture and praying to her I'm afraid I cannot. Not out of disrespect to her: I would gladly who her honour and respect if she were before me: but because in my conscience I still perceive it as idolatry.[/quote]

Kneeling down is not worship. It is a sign of honor for kings or queens for instance. In Genesis 27 Issac prophecies that all of Israel will bow down before Jacob.

[29] Let peoples serve you,
and nations bow down to you.
Be lord over your brothers,
and may your mother's sons bow down to you.
Cursed be every one who curses you,
and blessed be every one who blesses you!"

also of Judah:

Gen.49
[8] Judah, your brothers shall praise you;
your hand shall be on the neck of your enemies;
your father's sons shall bow down before you.


Bathsheba bows down before David.
1Kgs.1
[11] Then Nathan said to Bathshe'ba the mother of Solomon, "Have you not heard that Adoni'jah the son of Haggith has become king and David our lord does not know it?
[28] Then King David answered, "Call Bathshe'ba to me." So she came into the king's presence, and stood before the king.
[31] Then Bathshe'ba bowed with her face to the ground, and did obeisance to the king, and said, "May my lord King David live for ever!"



Solomon bows down before Bathsheeba.

1Kgs.2
[13] Then Adoni'jah the son of Haggith came to Bathshe'ba the mother of Solomon. And she said, "Do you come peaceably?" He said, "Peaceably."
[19] So Bathshe'ba went to King Solomon, to speak to him on behalf of Adoni'jah. And the king rose to meet her, and bowed down to her; then he sat on his throne, and had a seat brought for the king's mother; and she sat on his right.

It is not considered at all to be worship from a Biblical perspective with regard to royalty and certainly Mary is royalty in heaven. There is royalty in heaven. We see in Revelations the 24 elders sitting on thrones. The woman in Rev 12 with a crown of stars. Jesus is king but there is a kings court and it is not out of line to show honor to the kings court as well.

In Joshua 7 we even see the whole of Israel bowing down before the Ark of the Covenant and praying through it to God. Now modern evangelical Christians would have gasped at their idolatry. But it would only show their over emphasis at the external sign of bowing down and lack of consideration for what is in the heart which only God can know. The Israelites were granted victory. It is interesting that Mary has parrellels with the Ark of the Covenant in scripture. Have you been exposed to them? I.e. the parrellel between 2 Sam 6 and Luke 1?

Blessings

[scardella]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Apr 14 2005, 02:29 PM'] I recommend you study a little bit on St. Louis de Montfort, if for nothing more than to understand Catholicism a bit better.
[/quote]
YAY! St. Louis de Montfort!

His principle work is [i]True Devotion to Mary[/i]. He also wrote [i]Love of Eternal Wisdom[/i], [i]The Secret of Mary[/i], and [i]The Secret of the Rosary[/i]. All awesome.

[Priscilla]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Apr 14 2005, 02:29 PM']

Do you ever kneel in front of your Bible when you read it? Do you kiss pictures of loved ones? I don't understand how this is any different. It's certainly not worship. If the only thing keeping you back is a nagging feeling that maybe it's wrong, then I would say you may just have scrupulosity.

[/quote]
No. I do not kiss photos either.


"Scrupulosity" !!! what a lovely word!! I've never come across THAT one before! .....Yes you could be right: but what's wrong about being scrupulous where God's commandments are concerned?

[quote]God is merciful, but I sense that there is something else.  You would mention no need for God's mercy in this unless you thought that maybe we were right.  Many people have a hard time praying the rosary and such.  I'm very scrupulous and Satan tells me constantly that I'm worshipping Mary when I pray the rosary, but I know that it's not worship...that's just him trying to get me to stop.

[/quote]
Well I believe HaSatan is totally under God's control: just look at the book of Job - Satan couldn't lift his little finger against Job without God's permission. If Satan's giving you a hard time, maybe it's because God wants to teach you something.

Anyhow, as an Ex-Christadelphian I still adhere to my Christadelphian beliefs about Satan (though slightly modified because they miss one or two points).

[quote]I recommend you study a little bit on St. Louis de Montfort, if for nothing more than to understand Catholicism a bit better.

[/quote]
Never heard of him. Is it available on-line?

Edited April 14, 2005 by Priscilla

[Priscilla]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='Apr 14 2005, 03:21 PM']
Kneeling down is not worship. It is a sign of honor for kings or queens for instance. In Genesis 27 Issac prophecies that all of Israel will bow down before Jacob.

[/quote]
Yes but they were all live, real people.

I would be happy to curtsey for the Queen for example if I was to come into her presence: Scripture says to honour the king and show honour to whom honour is due.

But when someone dies, then they're dead and that's that. It's OK to hold them in your heart and memory: but to make a statue of them and pray to them I believe is wrong.

It's OK to ask LIVING Christians to pray for me/us: but in the grave, there is no remembrance. The dead can't pray. They're dead.

None of the Old Testament saints ever prayed to dead saints: even the great Elisha never ever prayed to his beloved saint Elijah (and he was taken up by a whirlwind into heaven).

Prayer should only ever be to the Lord Jesus, or to the Father through the Lord Jesus according to my understanding of Scripture.

But each to his own I guess. I'm sure the Lord doesn't mind: though maybe He does, I don't know. He's a jealous God, and if we give our affections, prayers and venerations to anyone other than Him then I think it's sticky ground.

But I'm thinking about what you all say anyhow.

[thessalonian]

Priscilla

Please take a moment and read my post above. Bowing down is not always worship or idolatry as your post implies.

[scardella]

FYI (off topic again!)
Being scrupulous (in the moral sense) is thinking something a sin when it is, in fact, not a sin. Oftentimes it seems to be an overreaction against a past or enviroment that is morally loose.

[philothea]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 14 2005, 03:56 PM'] "Scrupulosity" !!! what a lovely word!! I've never come across THAT one before! .....Yes you could be right: but what's wrong about being scrupulous where God's commandments are concerned?
[/quote]
(weep)

You know you've gone horribly wrong when you wonder if it's okay to wash your hands with warm water, or if that's too much self-indulgence and you must always use cold.



Scruples (the wrong kind) stink.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 14 2005, 04:56 PM'] No.  I do not kiss photos either.


"Scrupulosity"  !!! what a lovely word!! I've never come across THAT one before!  .....Yes you could be right:  but what's wrong about being scrupulous where God's commandments are concerned? [/quote]
I don't understand. The fact is that if the object of affection is the one represented in the picture, then your kiss, or the love in it, is not for the picture, but for the person.

As for scrupulosity, we're talking about a mental disorder here. I have it...it's related to Obsessive Compulsive Disorder and it's the point where you are so afraid of messing up that you won't do anything that could even remotely be taken badly...and in the meantime, you miss out on a lot of good things.

[quote]Well I believe HaSatan is totally under God's control:  just look at the book of Job - Satan couldn't lift his little finger against Job without God's permission.  If Satan's giving you a hard time, maybe it's because God wants to teach you something.[/quote]

God allows Satan to do things...that does not mean that God does those things.

[quote]Anyhow, as an Ex-Christadelphian I still adhere to my Christadelphian beliefs about Satan (though slightly modified because they miss one or two points).[/quote]

I actually don't know what that is.

[quote]Never heard of him.  Is it available on-line?[/quote]

Probably.

[Priscilla]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='Apr 14 2005, 04:11 PM'] Priscilla

Please take a moment and read my post above. Bowing down is not always worship or idolatry as your post implies. [/quote]
True - but bowing to dead people to me is just pure unctiousness.

[Priscilla]

[quote name='scardella' date='Apr 14 2005, 04:12 PM'] FYI (off topic again!)
Being scrupulous (in the moral sense) is thinking something a sin when it is, in fact, not a sin. Oftentimes it seems to be an overreaction against a past or enviroment that is morally loose. [/quote]
Well it's not scrupulosity in my case here then. I'm not overreacting to any past or environment.

I agree: some people do overreact. For example people who have say been into witchcraft might overreact and be very scrupulous about not reading Harry Potter (which actually I'm not too keen on either though I've never been into witchcraft).

Also, I like that Scripture "to the pure all things are pure" - so to a Catholic who has been brought up to view these things as pure then maybe they are pure.

But for me personally, because of the Scriptures which forbid pictures and graven images, these Scriptures have sensitised my conscience so that I consider it to be sin to venerate Mary and the "Saints"

[Priscilla]

[quote name='philothea' date='Apr 14 2005, 04:15 PM'] (weep)

You know you've gone horribly wrong when you wonder if it's okay to wash your hands with warm water, or if that's too much self-indulgence and you must always use cold.



Scruples (the wrong kind) stink. [/quote]
I agree. I get the drift better now.

Perhaps 'diligence' is a better word. I am endeavouring to be diligent about the Scriptures which forbid graven images and pictures.

I don't think that is a sin.

[Priscilla]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Apr 14 2005, 04:17 PM'] I don't understand. The fact is that if the object of affection is the one represented in the picture, then your kiss, or the love in it, is not for the picture, but for the person.

As for scrupulosity, we're talking about a mental disorder here. I have it...it's related to Obsessive Compulsive Disorder and it's the point where you are so afraid of messing up that you won't do anything that could even remotely be taken badly...and in the meantime, you miss out on a lot of good things.



. [/quote]
Yes I understand the meaning of it better now. I'd never really come across the word "scrupulosity" before.

You could be right - yet we're told by our Lord that our righteousness must exceed that of the Scribes and Pharisees if we want to get into the Kingdom, and there's no way they would have paid homage to a picture or graven image.

But if Catholics are at peace doing it, then who am I to judge? It's just that its not for me, and would be a stumbling block if I became a Catholic. Never mind.