Yay....the Vernacular

[Cam42]

[quote](Cam's going to love this) Littleless this will probably confound you but the truth is. The Mass is rarely celebrated today in the venacular. The venacular of the Mass is Latin. It was the unifying language of the Church and it is sad that we do not use any of the language in our celebrations. ( Hey I used to be pretty obstinate against this one myself)[/quote]

It was a long fight, but he finally saw the light......Yay hot stuff!!!!! :cheer:

Cam

N.B. Now if I could only get him to understand that Mass should be celebrated ad orientam and not versus populum.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Vulgata regnat.

[IamCatholic]

Veni, Vini, Vici? Is that even right, haha. By the way, where was the actual argument about Latin. Why should we use Latin if the people all speak the same language and can understand that? Can you please direct me to the debate. Thanks.

[IamCatholic]

Veni, Vini, Vici? Is that even right, haha. By the way, where was the actual argument about Latin. Why should we use Latin if the people all speak the same language and can understand that? Can you please direct me to the debate. Thanks.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='IamCatholic' date='Apr 5 2005, 01:50 AM'] Veni, Vini, Vici? Is that even right, haha. [/quote]
Yes.

[quote]By the way, where was the actual argument about Latin. Why should we use Latin if the people all speak the same language and can understand that? Can you please direct me to the debate. Thanks.[/quote]

I don't know where it is.

[Cam42]

There isn't one on this forum. hot stuff and I have known each other over 10 years and I am affectionately known in our circle as "the crazy conservative."

I have been working on him for that long and about 3 months ago, he saw the light and recognized that Latin is proper.

I love that guy. (filial)

Cam

[Q the Ninja]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Apr 4 2005, 11:44 PM']
It was a long fight, but he finally saw the light......Yay hot stuff!!!!! :cheer:

Cam

N.B. Now if I could only get him to understand that Mass should be celebrated ad orientam and not versus populum. [/quote]
YES!

[Q the Ninja]

Veni, vidi, vici?

[Jaime]

For the record folks, he won this battle a while ago. Its not like it just happened today!

And Cam, for the record I will never accept that the guitar will never be considered a sacred instrument

Edited April 6, 2005 by jaime

[conservativecatholic]

Our confirmation class caused quite an uproar when contempoary music was being introduced into a Mass associated with the youth. The truth was that we the youth despised unorthodox drum sets, guitars, and electric pianos at Mass. Those particular insturments are secular musical insturments and may be used in upbeat religious revivals, but not the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass! My fellow 50 friends and I who opposed the contemporary Mass are tired of being stereotyped as liberal transformers of the Liturgy. This must stop!

And to those who get huffy, please feel free to respond, but don't critcise my accordance with Roman Doctrine.

I am 100% Roman Catholic.


May God Bless!!!!

Edited April 6, 2005 by conservativecatholic

[Cam42]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Apr 5 2005, 07:24 PM'] For the record folks, he won this battle a while ago. Its not like it just happened today!

And Cam, for the record I will never accept that the guitar will never be considered a sacred instrument [/quote]
Guitars, what a vulgar instrument. :band:

Now, let's talk about organs.....

Cam

[conservativecatholic]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Apr 5 2005, 09:19 PM'] Guitars, what a vulgar instrument. :band:

Now, let's talk about organs.....

Cam [/quote]
My Grandma is giving me her organ from the 50's. It's gonna be sweet! I'm taking lessons this summer. The Church lacks organists! We need them!

[Totus_Tuus]

[quote]Our confirmation class caused quite an uproar when contempoary music was being introduced into a Mass associated with the youth. The truth was that we the youth despised unorthodox drum sets, guitars, and electric pianos at Mass. Those particular insturments are secular musical insturments and may be used in upbeat religious revivals, but not the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass! My fellow 50 friends and I who opposed the contemporary Mass are tired of being stereotyped as liberal transformers of the Liturgy. This must stop!

And to those who get huffy, please feel free to respond, but don't critcise my accordance with Roman Doctrine.

I am 100% Roman Catholic. [/quote]

I totally agree with on the contemporary music. However we need to find a better alternative than the dull drowns that are taking place in most Catholic Churches to date. The Mass is the highest form of worship of the Father. We are offering the Father to Himself ultimately. Which is far better than we could ever do in our humanness. I would just like it if we could sing worship music at Mass. Something that embodies more of a spiritually offering of ourselves. Music is also such a beautiful way to worship the Father, let's take advantage of those times when we can truly use it to worship HIM!!

Forever YOURS!

[Cam42]

Here are a few good articles about music...I know, I know....some people will jump all over this, but it is important. Why? Because it rightly asserts that “mood music and “Hollywood” are not conducive to traditional liturgical styles of the Church. So, with that being said, why would there be a need for guitars, trap sets, and synthesizers?

Here are the articles

[url="http://www.adoremus.org/0703Soloists.html"]http://www.adoremus.org/0703Soloists.html[/url]
[url="http://www.adoremus.org/0903Organists.html"]http://www.adoremus.org/0903Organists.html[/url]
[url="http://www.adoremus.org/1003Music.html"]http://www.adoremus.org/1003Music.html[/url]

A couple of important thoughts from these articles...."So ingrained has the role of soloist performer become in today’s Catholic churches that even when there is a choir, a soloist/cantor may be at a front microphone, with that microphone turned up to a volume that overshadows the full choir.

In stressing the importance of singing at Mass, the GIRM (2002) tells us that “When there is no choir, it is up to the cantor to lead the different chants in which the people take part” (GIRM 2002, III §104). Ah, the chants! The chanted responses,” says Ms. Carroll.

She goes on to say, “Music in most Catholic parishes today has strayed from the original intent of the Council Fathers, who stressed “active participation” of all the faithful. If the goal of music at Mass were to have a soloist or an entertainment group, we have succeeded rather well. If, however, the goal is the participation of the people in the pew in authentic worship through sacred music, we are failing.”

Isn’t the role of the congregation to actively participate in the Liturgy? If the cantors and “music groups” are taking over, what merit and function is there in active participation?

“In many Catholic parishes today, there is a section up front—usually on an elevated platform—that holds a drum set, amplifiers, microphones, and stands for guitars and electric bass. There may also be a case holding such percussive additions as maracas, tambourines, finger cymbals, and wood block. One might see, as in some churches I have visited, xylophone and marimba. In use there will be a tangle of wires, and several persons running around setting up, setting levels, and adjusting things. A soloist will croon into a microphone.

In many such churches, the organ sits mute. It does so by choice of the back-up group performers, as it is unsuitable for the pop-style secular music thrown at us by so many publishers today. This has helped lead to a shortage of organists. The American Guild of Organists a few years ago suggested that for every 200 paid positions, there is one qualified organist.”

“Pope Paul VI’s 1967 Instruction Musicam Sacram repeats this. And in the General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM), once again the pipe organ is reaffirmed as the instrument to be afforded first place. And “it is appropriate that.… the organ be blessed according to the Roman Rituale” (GIRM §313). So important a part of the church is the organ that the instrument has its own special blessing rite!

So why do we have electric keyboards, jazz and rock groups and an abundance of guitars instead of the pipe organ or a good pipe organ facsimile?

Protestant churches have rightfully held title to strongest congregational singing. These churches have known for centuries—as have Catholics—that the organ is the best way to lead a congregation in song.”

“To restore the use of the pipe organ (or a good equivalent) in our churches, we must also restore chant, polyphony, and traditional hymns—as mandated by the Councils and popes. This is a priority. Songs that sound like secular pop tunes naturally employ the keyboards and back-up groups. The result may be entertaining (if it is skillful); but it does not inspire worship.”

That has been my point all along, on several other threads.

As far as guitars go, “If the instruments used to accompany congregational singing do not lead the faithful into fuller participation in the Sacrifice of the Mass, or a deeper sense of the sacred; if instead they entertain us, or bring our hearts and minds into the world—the mundane, secular, and sensual—then how can they be suitable (or “made apt") for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass?”

Is this not my point? If the music is not in keeping with sacredness, it is not proper for the Sacred Liturgy. Guitars do not keep with sacredness. They keep with the culture, but not with sacredness that is transcendant of culture.

“In our churches in 2003, no less than in 1903, we need to banish whatever is unsuitable—whether instruments, or styles—and work to restore the sacred sound of music in our churches, so that we may experience the full truth and beauty of the sacred Liturgy.”

Amen Ms. Carroll.

[aloha918]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Apr 5 2005, 09:19 PM'] Guitars, what a vulgar instrument.    :band:

Now, let's talk about organs..... 

Cam [/quote]
why is the guitar such a vulgar instrument?........o yeha because it is from the 20th century......how dare we use such modern things........do you have a cell phone?....should we go back to only being able to send letters?.........

Edited April 8, 2005 by aloha918

[Jaime]

Gee Cam Its like Deja Vu all over again

Baiting me right before the fishing season opens.... really!

[Cam42]

Name one current composer who can hold water to Mozart, Gounod, and Bach. I can’t, not even close. Is the Creation Mass mundane compared to the Coronation Mass of Mozart? Uh, yes. Is the Creation Mass mundane compared to any mode of Gregorian Chant? Uh yes. Is that a matter of opinion? Uh no, the Church says as much. What has pride of place. Read Pope St. Pius X, [url="http://www.catholicliturgy.com/index.cfm/FuseAction/DocumentContents/Index/2/SubIndex/17/DocumentIndex/360"]Tra Le Sollecitudini[/url] It is fairly clear on the state of music and where it should go.

[quote]“Classic Polyphony agrees admirably with Gregorian Chant, the supreme model of all sacred music, and hence it has been found worthy of a place side by side with Gregorian Chant, in the more solemn functions of the Church, such as those of the Pontifical Chapel.” (TS no.4)[/quote]

[quote]“ Among the different kinds of modern music, that which appears less suitable for accompanying the functions of public worship is the theatrical style, which was in the greatest vogue, especially in Italy, during the last century. This of its very nature is diametrically opposed to Gregorian Chant and classic polyphony, and therefore to the most important law of all good sacred music. Besides the intrinsic structure, the rhythm and what is known as the conventionalism of this style adapt themselves but badly to the requirements of true liturgical music.” (TS no.6) [/quote]

Amazing how much of the musical functionality of the Church today follows in direct opposition to that condemnation.

How about [url="http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/P12MEDIA.HTM"]Mediator Dei[/url].

Hey, how about [url="http://www.catholicliturgy.com/index.cfm/FuseAction/DocumentContents/Index/2/SubIndex/17/DocumentIndex/243"]De Musica Sacra[/url].

It actually speaks about liturgical instrumentation.
[quote]“Other instruments besides the organ, especially the smaller bowed instruments, may be used during the liturgical functions, particularly on days of greater solemnity. These may be used together with the organ or without it, for instrumental numbers of for accompanying the singing. However, the following rules derived from the principles stated above (no.60) are to strictly observed:

a) the instruments are truly suitable for sacred use;

b) they are to be played with such seriousness, and religious devotion that every suggestion of raucous secular music is avoided, and the devotion of the faithful is fostered;

c) the director, organist, and other instrumentalists should be well trained in instrumental techniques, and the laws of sacred music.” (DMS no.68) [/quote]

Did someone say something about a chamber orchestra?

How abouts [url="http://www.catholicliturgy.com/index.cfm/FuseAction/documentText/Index/2/SubIndex/17/ContentIndex/386/Start/385"]Musica Sacra Disciplina[/url]?

[quote]Since the Church always held this polyphonic chant in the highest esteem, it willingly admitted this type of music even in the Roman basilicas and in pontifical ceremonies in order to increase the glory of the sacred rites. Its power and splendor were increased when the sounds of the organ and other musical instruments were joined with the voices of the singers.” (MSD no.15)[/quote]

[quote]“On this score sacred music obeys laws and rules which are no different from those prescribed for all religious art and, indeed, for art in general. Now we are aware of the fact that during recent years some artists, gravely offending against Christian piety, have dared to bring into churches works devoid of any religious inspiration and completely at variance with the right rules of art. They try to justify this deplorable conduct by plausible-looking arguments which they claim are based on the nature and character of art itself. They go on to say that artistic inspiration is free and that it is wrong to impose upon it laws and standards extraneous to art, whether they are religious or moral, since such rules seriously hurt the dignity of art and place bonds and shackles on the activity of an inspired artist.” (MSD no.22) [/quote]

[quote]“Since the freedom of the artist is not a blind instinct to act in accordance with his own whim or some desire for novelty, it is in no way restricted or destroyed, but actually ennobled and perfected, when it is made subject to the divine law.” (MSD no.26)[/quote]

The musician must subjegate himself to the divine law when composing or praying the music of the Mass.

The use of the organ does not need to be theologically proven, by the way. The Church is a Church of tradition as well. I have given many examples of the organ; pipe or otherwise as being the preferred instrument through sacred tradition. How can I say sacred? Through all of the enycylicals, exhortations and conciliar documentation.

The only other instruments mentioned are bowed instruments. Last I checked, the guitar is not a bowed instrument (unless of course you are a drugged out wack-o named Jimmy Paige).

As far as culture goes, read the encyclicals. The Catholic culture still supercedes. Just as in the proper use of language, the proper use of music is to be followed. To do otherwise is to stand in direct opposition to both Pope St. Pius X and Pope Pius XII.

I still assert that guitars are instruments of secular music and not worthy of sacred music, based on the articles and comments by the authortitative figures named. Especially, Pope St. Pius X, Pope Pius XII, and Pope Paul VI, as well Susan Benofey, Lucy Carroll and the USCCB.

Cam

[Q the Ninja]

You know, come visit St. Peter's sometime for a high Mass and hear the music. Wow...

Wow.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Q the Ninja' date='Apr 8 2005, 02:01 PM'] You know, come visit St. Peter's sometime for a high Mass and hear the music. Wow...

Wow. [/quote]
I was part of the only American choir to sing the Midnight Mass at St. Peter's. Been there....

[Nicole8223]

I play guitar, and have played at Mass before. However, I have never played anything that is inappropriate in the Church. The music is not loud and clapping music...just soft and a nice change from our elderly organist who plays the same songs every week. I think it can be a very nice addition if used in the proper light.

I don't like the full band, electric guitars, drums, any of that stuff...doesn't work to me. Ruins the reverence and the mood of the liturgy.