Yay....the Vernacular

[God Conquers]

I'd say that the majority of worship songs are neither "rock", nor complicated.

Most worship bands I know would not get a single person to listen to them outside of a religious setting, and therefore could not be considered secular. Nor do they sound much like contemporary rock.

Hey, I love the Pipe organ and orchestral settings. I hope they become more popular in the future. I would agree that a drum kit and electric guitars would not be suitable in a mass setting.... but what about a piano and non-augmented guitar? And no drums... let's forget about drums for a bit.

[Jaime]

Sigh... Here we go


So Camster

Why was the pipe organ chosen? What theological reasoning is there that the composers chose it?

Also since voice was the first instrument to have pride of place, why didn't it stop there? What was the need for and instrument?

with filial love

hot stuff

PS Grrrrrrrrrrrrr

[Cam42]

[quote]but what about a piano and non-augmented guitar?[/quote]

The piano is a percussion instrument. So, it is out. And I think that I have spoken about the guitar.

Cam

[aloha918]

.

Edited April 10, 2005 by aloha918

[aloha918]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Apr 8 2005, 01:54 PM'] Read Pope St. Pius X,





[/quote]
much has happened since this pope.........


p.s. i think it is funny that i think that you sound old fashioned.....and my grandma used to listen to music with a guitar........

Edited April 10, 2005 by aloha918

[Cam42]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Apr 9 2005, 11:52 AM'] Sigh... Here we go


So Camster

Why was the pipe organ chosen? What theological reasoning is there that the composers chose it?

Also since voice was the first instrument to have pride of place, why didn't it stop there? What was the need for and instrument?

with filial love

hot stuff

PS Grrrrrrrrrrrrr [/quote]
So, here I go....Church music is a sacramental. It is sound that has become holy through dedication to a sacred purpose, the worship of God, sound that is most closely connected to the Word of God, sound that is created and performed by persons dedicated to God’s praise and adoration.

Church music is essentially prayer, the raising of the heart and mind to God. Unfortunately in our day, not all music performed in church, even within the liturgical action itself, is successful as prayer. It does not carry the listener to God; it does not raise the heart and mind to prayer. Why not? Chiefly because it is not holy, separated from the ordinary events of daily living, set apart for God alone. When something is not itself holy, it cannot lead to or create holiness.

So, you want some theology? Here ya go Himester.....
[quote]"On this subject St. Augustine has accurately written: “Music, that is the science or the sense of proper modulation, is likewise given by God’s generosity to mortals having rational souls in order to lead them to higher things.” (MSD no.5)[/quote]

[quote]“St. Paul showed us clearly that sacred chant was used and held in honor from the very beginning in the Church founded by the Divine Redeemer when he wrote to the Ephesians: “Be filled with the Spirit, speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs."[7] He indicates that this custom of singing hymns was in force in the assemblies of Christians when he says: “When you come together each of you has a hymn."” (MSD no.8)[/quote]

[quote]“The choral chant began to be called “Gregorian” after St. Gregory, the man who revived it. It attained new beauty in almost all parts of Christian Europe after the 8th or 9th century because of its accompaniment by a new musical instrument called the “organ.” Little by little, beginning in the 9th century, polyphonic singing was added to this choral chant. The study and use of polyphonic singing were developed more and more during the centuries that followed and were raised to a marvelous perfection under the guidance of magnificent composers during the 15th and 16th centuries.” (DSM no.14)[/quote]

[quote]“In the ordinary lessons of Liturgy, Morals, and Canon Law given to the students of theology, let care be taken to touch on those points which regard more directly the principles and laws of sacred music, and let an attempt be made to complete the doctrine with some particular instruction in the aesthetic side of sacred art, so that the clerics may not leave the seminary ignorant of all those subjects so necessary to a full ecclesiastical education.” (TS no.26)[/quote]

The thought that there is a subjective understanding of music is a flawed one. There is no action of the sacred Liturgy that is subjective. There is no action of the sacred Liturgy that is at the discretion of the minister. This has been made clear time and time again. This also applies to the musician. The formula’s that are to be adhered to are often not. They are passed over for innovation and subjectivism. What do I mean by this? When there is an organ in the church, it sits silent as a guitar is played. Traditional hymns such as the Salve Regina, Sing of Mary, Schubert’s Ave Maria are passed over in favor of a guitar group or a piano/synthesizer.

Cam

[Cam42]

[quote]Most worship bands I know would not get a single person to listen to them outside of a religious setting, and therefore could not be considered secular. Nor do they sound much like contemporary rock.[/quote]

Tell that to Steven Curtis Chapman or Jars of Clay.

[Jaime]

All excellent points Camster.

However, Augustine does not speak about the organ. Nor does St Paul. What is the theological reasoning that the organ was chosen by the early church?

[Cam42]

[quote name='aloha918' date='Apr 9 2005, 10:49 PM'] much has happened since this pope.........


p.s. i think it is funny that i think that you sound old fashioned.....and my grandma used to listen to music with a guitar........ [/quote]
So Pope St. Pius X's teachings are somehow not binding any longer....tell that to Aquinas.

[Jaime]

Dude what happened to your signature?

[Cam42]

I don't know....freaky

[Jaime]

WHOA!! HOW'D THAT HAPPEN??

[argent_paladin]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Apr 9 2005, 11:01 PM']

However, Augustine does not speak about the organ. Nor does St Paul. What is the theological reasoning that the organ was chosen by the early church? [/quote]
I think that there is an analogy to Latin as a liturgical language and the organ as a liturgical instrument. The original reasons for both were practica. Latin was the language of the Empire and of the people, the vernacular. The organ was the only instrument that could be heard while a congregation was singing and was flexible.
Today, we have many languages in the Western church and many instruments can be heard because of electronic amplification. But, the reason to keep both stem from our respect for tradition and our desire to maintain unity (actually they are related). We in the 21st century in America are united with the rest of the Catholic world and with the generations past. Maintaining continuity in liturgy is a way to strengthen those bonds. Tradition is important and tradition means to hand down. We must keep the faith of our fathers and keep the traditions of our fathers. Paul doesn't speak of organs but the NT does speak of keeping the traditions given to us. Innovation for innovations sake is damaging. We have thrown out the good and replaced it with the banal. We have cheapened the liturgy and thrown away thousands of years of tradition. Plainchant is different not more difficult than contemporary liturgy.
Cam is right, we have lost the sense of the sacred. There is no more sacred music, sacred space, sacred time or sacred persons. Every line is blurred and that is a terrible loss. All is profane now.

[Totus_Tuus]

The guitar is awesome. God loves all types of worship!!

Edited April 10, 2005 by Totus_Tuus

[Cam42]

Notice that when anyone talks about the guitar, it is in a subjective light.

I think that is a telling side note.

Cam