Francis Arinze

[MC Just]

[quote name='Antonius' date='Apr 14 2005, 01:16 PM'] I wonder if he's aware that still there are bishops and priests in the USA who do not follow Redemptionis Sacramentum. I wonder if he has a special solution for the American church... I know that we are only a part of the Church, but America has been and still could be a fruitful part of the Church, if only the Faith was properly taught and the Church's Mass was celebrated instead of Fr. Wishy-Washy's hippie version.

Arinze has the assertiveness to do it. Georgetown was a warning to all those who support a culture of death and numbness to life. You can "follow your consciences" right out the door!

Maybe I'm being a bit reactionary? [/quote]
I'd like to find every dissenter Church in Usa and report them.

[MC Just]

Bump!

[toby1986]

[quote]"Greet eachother outside of church. When you get inside church be silent." [/quote]
and
[quote]"The church never said to remove the altar rails... If anyone can find me something where the church said to remove the altar rails I will give him a reward."[/quote]

OO, OO, OO, When did Arinze quote this? This is awesome! A parish next to mine recently build a new church building and I have attended mass there [u]only once[/u] for an ordination of my bro-in-law to deaconnite. There were kids running all over the place, people talking out loud like if they were at a barbecue, choir making noise, (not serious practice). It was complete chaos. My bro-in-law afterwards, when we met a dinner, stated that there would not be another church like that, to which I blurted out "Thank God". He didnt appreciate it. Altar rails? Many kids now-a-days do not have the foggiest idea what one looks like. We have them at our church and we all kneel to receive communion-- on the tongue-- BTW its not a TLM either...

[quote]But I think greatest thing about Arinze is that he would be awesome with young adults like us.[/quote]
HEY!!! I think he would be awesome with old dudes like me too..

I love him and for sometime now have hoped that he would be the next Pope. I think that just as John Paul the Great was great in the downfall of communism, he can have the same effect with Islam. Especially since the Church is growing by leaps and bounds in Africa.
I think he would look great with an :afro: Just kidding.....

[toby1986]

[quote]That is THE DOPEST MITRE ever worn! BAM! Couldn't you just see him as our PAPA! [/quote]

I think that Mitre is awesome. Can you just envision him preaching hellfire and brimstone wearing that Mitre?!!
I'm sure that would scare the out of many people...

[timsj]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Apr 8 2005, 06:41 PM'] You guys do realize he wouldn't be the first black pope right?

Pope St. Gelasius I (one of my favorite popes), was [i]natione Afer[/i], however, he was [i]Romanus natus[/i].

This means that he was of African descent, but born a Roman citizen. ie. He was most probably black. Did I say that I really like the name Pope Gelasius III.

Cam [/quote]
I am not sure there will ever be a gelasius III... as the second Gelasius had such a bad time!!! The Holy Roman emperor (I think Henry IV) drove Gelasius from Rome in March, pronounced his election null and void, and set up Burdinus, archbishop of Braga, as antipope under the name of Gregory VIII.

Gelasius fled to Gaeta, where he was ordained priest ( he had been elected pope by his predecessor outside of holy orders!!) on the 9th of March and on the following day received episcopal consecration. He at once excommunicated Henry and the antipope and, under Norman protection, was able to return to Rome in July; but the disturbances of the imperialist party, especially of the Frangipani, who attacked the pope while celebrating mass in the church of St Prassede, compelled Gelasius to go once more into exile. He set out for France, consecrating the cathedral of Pisa on the way, and arrived at Marseilles in October. He was received with great enthusiasm at Avignon, Montpellier and other cities, held a synod at Vienne in January 1119, and was planning to hold a general council to settle the investiture contest when he died at Cluny.

Maybe not the best precedent!!!!

By the way I think scholasticopinion is that Gelasius I, was not Black... as you rightly say he was born in Rome but his parents (possibly traders from around what is now algeria/morroco) when probably of Arabic complexion. Although there is no definate prood either way

[timsj]

"The church never said to remove the altar rails... If anyone can find me something where the church said to remove the altar rails I will give him a reward."

I'm not sure he did say this.... as it is faintly ridiculous.

When the church reformed the liturgy in Vatican II, the guidlines issued where a little important than the importance of altar rails.... which of course where not present in all churches anyway!

this is the danger of us all projecting our own agendas and putting words into the Cardinals mouths..... May I be as bold as to suggest a bit of caution.

Edited April 17, 2005 by timsj

[Myles Domini]

Its not at all ridiculous Tim. Vatican II did not reform the mass, Sancrosanctum Concilium merely issued guidelines for this--and though I must admit I am not that well versed in the document, I dont recall it laying down any concrete (that is 'do this, this, this and that') instructions for the reform of the Mass. My reading of the document was merely that Sancrosanctum Concilium issued guideliness for liturgical reform, guideliness which were ultimately interpreted by Paul VI's liturgical commission which produced the revised breviary 4 years after the Second Vatican Council was closed.

Being ethnically afro-carribean I know how blunt black people can be. Moreover, knowing Arinze that sounds like something he could and would say and indeed I would second him. Where do the magisterial documents of the Church say we should remove altar rails?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='timsj' date='Apr 17 2005, 06:37 PM'] "The church never said to remove the altar rails... If anyone can find me something where the church said to remove the altar rails I will give him a reward."

I'm not sure he did say this.... as it is faintly ridiculous.

When the church reformed the liturgy in Vatican II, the guidlines issued where a little important than the importance of altar rails.... which of course where not present in all churches anyway!

this is the danger of us all projecting our own agendas and putting words into the Cardinals mouths..... May I be as bold as to suggest a bit of caution. [/quote]
Actually, I have heard that there was no call to remove the altar rails. I would like to see where that was called for.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Myles' date='Apr 17 2005, 07:12 PM'] Being ethnically afro-carribean I know how blunt black people can be. Moreover, knowing Arinze that sounds like something he could and would say and indeed I would second him. Where do the magisterial documents of the Church say we should remove altar rails? [/quote]
I love the blunt style.

Someone the other day, a devout Catholic, was saying that he was just trying to dodge the question when he said, "that's a first grade question."

I saw something different...I see a guy who is sick of the media asking the same questions over and over looking for some new soundbite they can twist and reject and mock. He was blunt and refused to give it to them.

If indeed it is time to separate the wheat from the chaff, I think Cardinal Arinze may do it.

I love him, and as the Irish/German/Polish white boy I am, I salute this cultural trait.

[Guest Eremite]

haha. I am also enthused by Arinze's bluntness. When I saw him on EWTN, I couldn't help but think about him as Pope, laying the smack down without mincing words. (Not that John Paul II was a pushover; but he did have a different personality).

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Apr 17 2005, 07:24 PM'] haha. I am also enthused by Arinze's bluntness. When I saw him on EWTN, I couldn't help but think about him as Pope, laying the smack down without mincing words. (Not that John Paul II was a pushover; but he did have a different personality). [/quote]
Yeah, well, you know...a bishop's staff has a crook to gather in the lambs, but it also has a point to prod them along and push them back into the fold.

I think God intended for John Paul the Great to work on pulling them in. I think it may be His plan now to start the punishments for those who haven't come back yet...start poking and proding and hopefully they will come back into the folds, but it may be the time chosen by God to shift the dissenters away from the faithful.

[timsj]

[quote name='Myles' date='Apr 17 2005, 06:12 PM'] Where do the magisterial documents of the Church say we should remove altar rails? [/quote]
I think my point was there was never any magisterial document in the first place that says altar rails are necessary in a church.... Arinze as prefect of the congregation would of course know that, hence it being faintly ridiculous.

Don't get me wrong I have neither strong feelings for against having altar rails, but having spent the last two summers helping to build missions in India, I am well aware that many new churches would not see the installation of altar rails as a priority! Something that Arinze will be all to acutely aware of ... and what I object to is the undertone that having altar rails or not is sign of orthodoxy. Maybe I misinterpreted the undertone.

Hope that explains my post a bit more.

[Myles Domini]

[quote]Something that Arinze will be all to acutely aware of ... and what I object to is the undertone that having altar rails or not is sign of orthodoxy. Maybe I misinterpreted the undertone.[/quote]

I would say you misinterpreted and thus there is nothing for you to 'object to' From my experience of phatmass.com when people here have something to say they say it the kind of tone associated with Cardinal Arinze. Phatmassers employ no smokescreens dude they just go ahead and say it.

I think the general feeling is not that the abscence of altar rails is not evidence of heterodoxy but that in many places it has become so because the rails have been forcibly removed as part of post-conciliar 'remodelling', much of which was carried out in the name of Vatican II without any concrete backing from the Council or the post-conciliar magisterial documents.

Some of the 'modernisation' of older parish churches that was carried out in the pseudo 'spirit of Vatican II' borders on iconoclastic and since that work was, in many cases, carried out by unorthodox clerics it gets associated with a certain level of Catholicity.

I am non-partisan, whether or not there is or is not an altar rail, I kneel to recieve communion so it makes no difference to me. However, art and architecture arise out of the soul of man. Human beings were communicating by pictures before we could speak properly and the effort men make in their ecclesiastical art often reflects an outpouring of religious fervour and feeling and the altar rail was no exception.

I'll assume you know that the whole kneeling to recieve communion was the 16th century Catholic's way of affirming his believe in the body and blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ being present in the Blessed Sacrament and altar rails are all part of that lived theology. In a climate of coolness towards the real prescence, particularly in the West, naturally the removal of altar rails--which were traditionally an extension of affirming believe in Transubstantiation--causes many to feel a little upset.

Assuming that 'SJ' means Society of Jesus I laud you Tim for having the bravery to take up that charism of St Ignatius in pledging your obidience to the Pope and going wherever he tells you. I hope your mission work was a success. Yet, I would ask also that you employ the Jesuit sense for pastoral care and show empathy to the phatmassers also. Please, prior to making assumptions, consider the emotions and sensibilities of the people you are speaking to and try to grasp why it is they might be reacting as they are before you move to make statements about their motivations.

Sincerely
Myles

PS) My own parish church does not have altar rails and the parish priest is unquestionably orthodox

Edited April 18, 2005 by Myles

[dUSt]

[quote name='timsj' date='Apr 17 2005, 05:37 PM'] "The church never said to remove the altar rails... If anyone can find me something where the church said to remove the altar rails I will give him a reward."

I'm not sure he did say this.... as it is faintly ridiculous.

When the church reformed the liturgy in Vatican II, the guidlines issued where a little important than the importance of altar rails.... which of course where not present in all churches anyway!

this is the danger of us all projecting our own agendas and putting words into the Cardinals mouths..... May I be as bold as to suggest a bit of caution. [/quote]
Putting words into a Cardinal's mouth? Faintly ridiculous? The former is an accusation against me and the latter is a direct criticism of the Cardinal.

If you take the time to watch the videos posted earlier in this thread, you will see with your own eyes this [b]exact[/b] quote coming from Cardinal Arinze's mouth.

[timsj]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Apr 18 2005, 10:43 AM'] Putting words into a Cardinal's mouth? Faintly ridiculous? The former is an accusation against me and the latter is a direct criticism of the Cardinal.

If you take the time to watch the videos posted earlier in this thread, you will see with your own eyes this [b]exact[/b] quote coming from Cardinal Arinze's mouth. [/quote]
You are right I havent seen the video... and i do apologise....

I take both accusations back and will attempt to better informed next time.

It does suprise me though, I am very interested to see what will happen if Arinze is elevated. I think his background will have a huge impact on the world and his charisma is worth its weight in gold. I had heard that his real passion was his time in charge of Inter-religious dialogue, and that he was particularly comfortable in the liturgy role.

I still maintain that as everyone has their own agenda it is very dangerous to put word in 'cardinals' mouth.... I am sorry that I falsely accused you of that!