the "manmade" God.

[theculturewarrior]

Melchisedec asked the question, "Can God exist without man?"

My answer, taken on faith, is that God has existed without man, but since God is True God, and True Man, theoretically, there has to be at least one Man.

The question at hand is who made who, God, or man?

Matters of faith have the quality of unfalsifiability. They can neither be proved or disproved scientifically. Prophecies have the quality of self-fulfillment, as do prayers. People of faith often cling to their faith when faced with evidence to the contrary.

The thing is, religion isn't the only thing taken on faith. That I am truly alive and that what I sense is real are matters I take on faith, and matters that have been challenged by secular philosophers, matters with the qualities of unfalsifiability, and to my experience, "self-fulfullment."

It would seem that man cannot escape the qualities that are inherent in any worldview, to greater or lesser extents. My question is, why?

Why is man a religious being? Why is faith also an "inherent" quality in man, along with goodness? Where does it come from? That men die celibate for something or Someone they literally can't see or hear strikes me as an evolutionary defect, unless there is a God.

More to come.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='theculturewarrior' date='Apr 9 2005, 02:54 PM'] Melchisedec asked the question, "Can God exist without man?"

My answer, taken on faith, is that God has existed without man, but since God is True God, and True Man, theoretically, there has to be at least one Man.

The question at hand is who made who, God, or man?

Matters of faith have the quality of unfalsifiability. They can neither be proved or disproved scientifically. Prophecies have the quality of self-fulfillment, as do prayers. People of faith often cling to their faith when faced with evidence to the contrary.

The thing is, religion isn't the only thing taken on faith. That I am truly alive and that what I sense is real are matters I take on faith, and matters that have been challenged by secular philosophers, matters with the qualities of unfalsifiability, and to my experience, "self-fulfullment."

It would seem that man cannot escape the qualities that are inherent in any worldview, to greater or lesser extents. My question is, why?

Why is man a religious being? Why is faith also an "inherent" quality in man, along with goodness? Where does it come from? That men die celibate for something or Someone they literally can't see or hear strikes me as an evolutionary defect, unless there is a God.

More to come. [/quote]
Its very simple. We want to make sense of the world around us. We want purpose. We want to know why we are here, when we were created, what lies out there in the universe and beyond for us. God has always been the explanation to those questions unknown. Why are there symbols and common myth spread through culture. Are there symbols innate in the human mind like Jung theorized. Why are most religions and myths messianic in a nature. Why are most messianic stories almost identical?

[theculturewarrior]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Apr 9 2005, 03:16 PM'] Why are there symbols and common myth spread through culture. Are there symbols innate in the human mind like Jung theorized. Why are most religions and myths messianic in a nature. Why are most messianic stories almost identical? [/quote]
You've been taking medieval history!

My answer to the bit you have quoted would be, "because we are created beings." We were created by God to love him, and he created us to rest when we rest in him. Why else would a maladaptive trait such as religion be so widespread?

I would really like to know your sources. Where did you learn that most myths are messianic in nature? Where did you learn that most messianic stories are almost identical.

I've heard that suggested to me before, in history class. The professors said that early Christians saw the the similiarities in mythology as a type of preparation by God for pagans to receive the Gospel. In either case, I think that's hard to explain from either an atheist or Christian POV.

I am not naive about the veracity of myth. "A legend is written by the majority of the people in the Village who are sane. A book is written by the one man in the village who is mad."

[jrndveritatis]

[quote]Its very simple. We want to make sense of the world around us. We want purpose. We want to know why we are here, when we were created, what lies out there in the universe and beyond for us. God has always been the explanation to those questions unknown. Why are there symbols and common myth spread through culture. Are there symbols innate in the human mind like Jung theorized. Why are most religions and myths messianic in a nature. Why are most messianic stories almost identical? [/quote]

This does not mean we invented God. Simply because we have needs or desires and God fulfills them does not mean that we invented God as a "security blanket" to help us cope with life or find meaning.

In fact, would it not make sense that we could have these inclinations and questions precisely because God created us?

[Melchisedec]

[quote]My answer to the bit you have quoted would be, "because we are created beings." We were created by God to love him, and he created us to rest when we rest in him. Why else would a maladaptive trait such as religion be so widespread?[/quote]

You are the one implying that its maladaptive, I never asserted it. There are many reasons on why religion endures. One is it answers questions that most likely will(would) remain unknown. God helps connect the dots.

[quote]I would really like to know your sources. Where did you learn that most myths are messianic in nature? Where did you learn that most messianic stories are almost identical.[/quote]

Through my own study.

[quote]I've heard that suggested to me before, in history class. The professors said that early Christians saw the the similiarities in mythology as a type of preparation by God for pagans to receive the Gospel. In either case, I think that's hard to explain from either an atheist or Christian POV[/quote]

I see it as a myth refashioned into another myth.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='jrndveritatis' date='Apr 9 2005, 04:00 PM']
In fact, would it not make sense that we could have these inclinations and questions precisely because God created us? [/quote]
Its definitely plausible that a creator can endow their creation with a sense of its existence. I dont see evidence for that. I see this inclination as being a construct to the question of existence. Questioning is intrinsic to our minds and if it wasn't , we wouldn't have advanced as we have and learned what we have.

[theculturewarrior]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Apr 9 2005, 05:50 PM']
You are the one implying that its maladaptive, I never asserted it. There are many reasons on why religion endures.  One is it answers questions that most likely will(would) remain unknown.  God helps connect the dots.



Through my own study.



I see it as a myth refashioned into another myth. [/quote]
A trait that inspires people to die childless, violent deaths is by darwinistic terms maladaptive.

I personally believe in God because I found life as an atheist empty and depressing. I'm Catholic because it allows me to experience God's love most fully. I never needed an explanation, although it's nice to know what is True. But I loved the Truth before I ever even knew what (or Who) it was.

Faith and reason are not in opposition to eachother. Both are sources of authority upon which beliefs rest. The Fathers looked at nature to infer Truth from Beauty. Now Catholic theologians look at science and infer religious Truth from scientific fact.

It is my faith that everything that is true has a theological significance.

</rant>

Can you provide me with any sources from your study? I would be interested in learning more.

God bless,

TCW

[Socrates]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Apr 9 2005, 03:16 PM'] Why are most religions and myths messianic in a nature. Why are most messianic stories almost identical? [/quote]
Most "religions and myths" are not "messianic in nature."

Christianity is really the only major "messianic religion." (Unless you count Judaism, which Christianity claims to be the fulfillment of!)

The claim of Christianity as a religion is actually quite unique. It is the only religion which claims God Himself, the Creator of the Universe became incarnate as a specific human being in a specific historical time in a specific place.

This, of course, in itself does not prove Christianity true, but this religion does make a unique and radical claim. It is not "almost identical" to every other religion.

Edited April 10, 2005 by Socrates

[God Conquers]

Its very simple. We want to make sense of the world around us. We want purpose. We want to know why we are here, when we were created, what lies out there in the universe and beyond for us. Science has always been the explanation to those questions unknown. Why are there persisitant and common theory spread through culture. Are there symbols innate in the human mind like Jung theorized. Why are most scientific theories evolutionary in a nature. Why are most scientific creation stories almost identical?

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='theculturewarrior' date='Apr 9 2005, 08:04 PM']
[/quote]
[quote]I personally believe in God because I found life as an atheist empty and depressing.
[/quote]

Some people seek belief when they are trying to cope with turmoil. I guess you needed a reasons to seek happiness. Luckily for me, love is abudant in my life.

[quote]I'm Catholic because it allows me to experience God's love most fully. I never needed an explanation, although it's nice to know what is True. But I loved the Truth before I ever even knew what (or Who) it was.[/quote]

I seek truth, and explanations are part of that truth.

[quote]Faith and reason are not in opposition to eachother. Both are sources of authority upon which beliefs rest.[/quote]

explain

[quote]
The Fathers looked at nature to infer Truth from Beauty. Now Catholic theologians look at science and infer religious Truth from scientific fact[/quote]

example?

[quote]Can you provide me with any sources from your study? I would be interested in learning more. [/quote]

I've got alot of material. Id love to do a correspondence with you. Maybe you can get the admins to reinstate my private messaging privelages. Ill send you some stuff over.

[Melchisedec]

[quote]Most "religions and myths" are not "messianic in nature."
[/quote]

mithra, dionysus, krisha, bel, osiris share are just a few that are indeed messiahs. Lets not forget the beliefs of the indigenous people of the earth. Alot of religions contain messiahs which are usually half man , half god. That die for their cause. Sometimes resusrected. Sometimes are said to return again. These are common themes in many religious beleifs.

[quote]This, of course, in itself does not prove Christianity true, but this religion does make a unique and radical claim.  It is not "almost identical" to every other religion.[/quote]

The word identical was of poor choice. Similar conveys my thoughts better. I agree its distinct, but I find the themes to be reoccuring.

Edited April 10, 2005 by Melchisedec

[MichaelFilo]

None of the messiahs in those messianic stories was God, but simply a mutt bred between a god and his human half.... but then again your best claim to a messianic story (being mithra) was born to a rock.

You should know that none of those messianic stories has any actual record of the happening outside of the religious text of that religion.

God bless,
Mikey

[Melchisedec]

[quote]None of the messiahs in those messianic stories was God, but simply a mutt bred between a god and his human half.... but then again your best claim to a messianic story (being mithra) was born to a rock. [/quote]

The similarities show the borrowing of pagan beliefs. They(the religions) all have their own distinctions but they also share uncanny similarities. Like immaculate conception by virgins. In case of mithra, you forget that the emergence from rock is an alternate myth. Another account is that mithra was born of a virgin on dec,25. Also, buddha was not 1/2 breed.

[MichaelFilo]

The alternate myth is the original. There are two form sof the Mithra belief, one that is Roman in nature and the original one that was founded in the Persian speaking areas. The Roman one came into existance post-Christianity, and so included belifs that were Christian in nature, such as the virgin birth.


I didn't know Buddah was half god. Essentially, though, all messiahs in the pagan world that were half god and half man came about through physical intercourse.

God bless,
Mikey

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Apr 10 2005, 06:32 PM'] You should know that none of those messianic stories has any actual record of the happening outside of the religious text of that religion.
[/quote]
True. And Melchisedec, I understand where you are coming from. I have the same kind of thoughts.

But, the fact is, Jesus is the only one of these Messiahs that is also recorded in secular history.

You have to also keep in mind that this messiah, the true one, created such a religious movement, larger than these other messiah myths, and has lasted into this age, the age of rationality.

Notice how the others died off.
This one did not.
And there is a reason for it.

I do not know why, if there was no purpose, that someone would endure persecution and, in the past, death, to be christian. There has to be some kind of reward.

Ah, well, you dont have to agree, but i know what you mean.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='Apr 10 2005, 07:27 PM'] True. And Melchisedec, I understand where you are coming from. I have the same kind of thoughts.

But, the fact is, Jesus is the only one of these Messiahs that is also recorded in secular history.

You have to also keep in mind that this messiah, the true one, created such a religious movement, larger than these other messiah myths, and has lasted into this age, the age of rationality.

Notice how the others died off.
This one did not.
And there is a reason for it.

I do not know why, if there was no purpose, that someone would endure persecution and, in the past, death, to be christian. There has to be some kind of reward.

Ah, well, you dont have to agree, but i know what you mean. [/quote]
I can definitely appreciate your reasons.

[Jaime]

You know Melchisidec there is a large amount of truth in what you are saying. There is an innate need within cultures to explain the unexplainable and there is a huge amount of psychology behind it. There is also a duality within the gods created in these cultures.

Take Roman mythology for example. All of the Gods serve dual purposes. Mercury was the god of speed and he was also the god of rape.

The Mayan culture is another one with dual roles. But they combine their own mythology with Catholicism. They have a mayan god called mashimon. He is by far their favorite god. Why? Because he has done every conceivable sin. Anything bad that you could do, he's done 7 times worse in 10 different ways. They actually have homes built for him in small towns in Guatemala, complete with housekeepers. The Mashimon celebration is much like Mardi Gras and happens prior to Holy Week. Then on Good Friday, they hang mashimon in front of the church because he represents Judas.

From a psychological standpoint, this duality is an outward transference of the human struggle with duality. The creation of these religions makes sense There isn't a duality in Christianity.

However here is the distinction between the pagan cultures and Judiasm and Christianity. Their religions are designed to improve their lives. Ours is to celebrate our suffering. From a psychological standpoint, this makes no sense. We don't just justify our suffering, we are taught to hold it sacred. Our suffering makes us holy.

From a psychological standpoint, this makes no sense.

Also here's the other distinction. Pagan religions believe that the gods exist to serve them. Bring the right sacrifice and you can get a blessing for yourself or a curse for someone else. Again from a psychological perspective, you now have resolution of how to control the unknown. Make the right sacrifice and manipulate the gods to do your bidding.

However, Judiasm and Christianity beliieve in stewardship of the earth and servitude to God. We give up any possibility to control the unknown. Again psychologically that don't make a whole lot of sense.

[theculturewarrior]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Apr 10 2005, 05:50 PM']

Some people seek belief when they are trying to cope with turmoil. I guess you needed a reasons to seek happiness. Luckily for me, love is abudant in my life.

[/quote]

My turmoil was the drama of not knowing God.

[quote]

I seek truth, and explanations are part of that truth.

[/quote]

I seek Truth, and accept the explanation He has given me.

[quote]

explain

[/quote]

Well, you can reason things out ad nauseum, and you can reduce any worldview through reason, but after a certain point, reason only takes you so far, and the history of philosophy demonstrates that. I did a paper on this once. One English empiricist speculated that only the mind is real. Then another contradicted him, speculating that nothing is real! They were using pure reason!

But the seat I'm sitting on now doesn't go away because of my worldview. To know reality is real requires faith. Any proof of reality being real that uses only reason...has been deconstructed a thousand times.

[quote]

example?

[/quote]

[url="http://www.vatican.va/spirit/documents/spirit_20000721_agostino_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/spirit/documents/spi...gostino_en.html[/url]

^ That's for examples of the Fathers inferring Truth from Beauty.

As far as Catholic theologians inferring theology from science, I think Catholic bioethics in general does this. If you want sources, let me know.

[quote]

I've got alot of material. Id love to do a correspondence with you. Maybe you can get the admins to reinstate my private messaging privelages. Ill send you some stuff over. [/quote]


I don't think that's going to happen. I don't know if the debate table would let you do a thread with just me and you, if so, I'm game.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Apr 10 2005, 08:07 PM'] However here is the distinction between the pagan cultures and Judiasm and Christianity. Their religions are designed to improve their lives. Ours is to celebrate our suffering. From a psychological standpoint, this makes no sense. We don't just justify our suffering, we are taught to hold it sacred. Our suffering makes us holy.
[/quote]
You've described budhism essentially. I never really thought of christianity as celebrating an indivuals suffering. Its a very interesting analysis. These matters fascinate me.

[Melchisedec]

[quote]Well, you can reason things out ad nauseum, and you can reduce any worldview through reason, but after a certain point, reason only takes you so far, and the history of philosophy demonstrates that. I did a paper on this once. One English empiricist speculated that only the mind is real. Then another contradicted him, speculating that nothing is real! They were using pure reason![/quote]

I'd love to read the paper. I'm not into metaphysics, and I know some philosophy and Im furthering my knowledge of it. So I don't know what or whom your referring to. But I stand by reason and logic.

[quote]But the seat I'm sitting on now doesn't go away because of my worldview. To know reality is real requires faith. Any proof of reality being real that uses only reason...has been deconstructed a thousand times.
[/quote]

I must have faith on what Im perceiving is real? Is this what the vedas referred to as 'maya' or illusion. Sounds like the teachings of don juan books. I'd like to hear you reason away the sky for me.

[quote]
I don't think that's going to happen. I don't know if the debate table would let you do a thread with just me and you, if so, I'm game.[/quote]

Debate what:
who made who, god or man?

Thats a heavy burden to prove. Is there some book written by god that I am not aware of. I'm game. Or you wish to debate the existence of god? IF you prove that, than get ready to collect your nobel prize. But im not one to engage in the god doesn't absolutely exist debate. I honestly think there could be a creator, but my position on it is agnostic. I'm not a fan of strong atheism. I don't believe we know enough about the universe to know its absolute origins. As far as my position on the gods of the various scripture, my position on that is. I do not believe men were working through god to bring forth his words. I dont have faith in that.