Socrates Posted April 12, 2005 Posted April 12, 2005 [quote name='burnsspivey' date='Apr 12 2005, 01:43 PM'] Should I assume that you mean Jesus here? Because this statement simply doesn't make sense. What do you mean by "founder"? And how does christianity's "founder" differ from judaism's? [/quote] Of course I mean Jesus. As a Christian, I beleive God is the true founder also of the Jewish religion which was fulfilled in Christ. However, neither Abraham, nor Moses, nor any of the other Jewish prophets claimed to be God or the Messiah. Jesus did. That is the unique claim of Christianity. Any Jew would immediately recognize the difference. That is why the Jewish leaders condemned Jesus to death for blasphemy. [quote]Just because a work incorporates real people doesn't make it non-fiction. Nor does that validate its uniqueness.[/quote] You may believe the Christian Gospels are fiction. Christians believe them to be fact (Gospel Truth!). You haven't contradicted my point. What other religions have documents which make the same claims as the Gospels? [quote]Zoroastrianism was also presumptively unique at its time. And?[/quote] Zoroastrianism appeared long after the Judaism. Judaism is the first major monotheistic religion. [quote]Who said christianity stole from other religions? And, I believe that Melchisedec gave a list of books above that deal with themes in christianity that appear elsewhere.[/quote] All religions deal with some similar themes (creation, the meaning of life, death, the afterlife, etc.) It is the particular claim of Christianity that is unique.
theculturewarrior Posted April 12, 2005 Author Posted April 12, 2005 <hijack>Hmmm... I'm in a little over my head with this, but I know that Chesterton and the Inklings were not afraid of Christianity and its mythological predecessors. Maybe somebody else knows more about this. Tolkien considered Christianity a myth, but he also considered it the Truth. It was the True Myth. Thus the quote I posted earlier in this thread. "A legend is written by the majority of the people in the village who are sane. A book is written by the one man in the village who is mad." </hijack>
theculturewarrior Posted April 21, 2005 Author Posted April 21, 2005 [quote name='burnsspivey' date='Apr 12 2005, 10:39 AM'] So my question to you, then, is this: How do you deal with those of us who do believe that it's possible that there is no such thing as 'reality' and that the sky could be a figment of our collective imaginations? I don't take it on faith that the sky (or whatever) is real, but I don't believe that my life would be altered one mote if it were proven illusory. It simply [i]does not matter[/i] whether it is real or not. [/quote] I guess my point was that on a certain level, it takes at least some faith to know reality. You can say, "the sky is real." And I can say, "how do you know?" And you can say, "because I sense it." And I can say, "why do you trust your senses?" We could continue ad nauseam. But after a certain point, you would simply have to trust your principles. That's faith. That you find reality irrelavent is outside of my original assertion. To mel...I haven't forgotten about this thread, I've just been busy. Bibliography to come. In the meanwhile, could you please give the complete bibliographic information on the books you've listed? God bless, TCW
theculturewarrior Posted April 21, 2005 Author Posted April 21, 2005 Q: How is it more plausible to say that man created God, than to say that God created man as a religious being? I don't think that has been answered. I would also say, that the Catholic Church does not claim to have a historical monopoly on Truth, as if there is nothing true in other Faiths. The difference, it seems to me, is that the Church has holds the Truth more fully and more carefully than any other faith, and man needs the whole Truth.
theculturewarrior Posted April 21, 2005 Author Posted April 21, 2005 [quote name='burnsspivey' date='Apr 12 2005, 01:43 PM'] Who said christianity stole from other religions? And, I believe that Melchisedec gave a list of books above that deal with themes in christianity that appear elsewhere. [/quote] Yeah, I was looking for information on the authors, and I couldn't find anything except on one. (Thus the request for more information). The only thing I could find was on Freke, and he didn't seem to be much of an authority. He has a BA in philosophy and writes books on "spiritualism." I could not find any indication that his views belonged to an academic consensus, or represented it best. That's not to say I think Christianity's mythical predecessors are an invention of Mel's authors. But to say that Christianity is a fabrication, well, I don't see how one proceeds from the other.
Melchisedec Posted April 21, 2005 Posted April 21, 2005 [quote name='theculturewarrior' date='Apr 21 2005, 08:46 AM'] Bibliography to come. In the meanwhile, could you please give the complete bibliographic information on the books you've listed? [/quote] No.
Melchisedec Posted April 21, 2005 Posted April 21, 2005 [quote name='theculturewarrior' date='Apr 21 2005, 09:07 AM'] Yeah, I was looking for information on the authors, and I couldn't find anything except on one. (Thus the request for more information). The only thing I could find was on Freke, and he didn't seem to be much of an authority. He has a BA in philosophy and writes books on "spiritualism." I could not find any indication that his views belonged to an academic consensus, or represented it best. That's not to say I think Christianity's mythical predecessors are an invention of Mel's authors. But to say that Christianity is a fabrication, well, I don't see how one proceeds from the other. [/quote] You can purchase all these books on Amazon. If you want to attack the credibility of any of their works, I suggest you get the books and do an analysis of them.
infinitelord1 Posted April 22, 2005 Posted April 22, 2005 hot stuff pointed something out that has been ringing a bell in my head all day today......judaism is the first religion in which they recognized a servitude to yahweh ( or a god). This sets the belief in yahweh apart from the belief in any other god. To me, sounds like yahweh must have given them a reason to serve him.
zealousdefender Posted April 22, 2005 Posted April 22, 2005 [quote name='God Conquers' date='Apr 10 2005, 12:01 AM']Its very simple. We want to make sense of the world around us. We want purpose. We want to know why we are here, when we were created, what lies out there in the universe and beyond for us. Science has always been the explanation to those questions unknown. Why are there persisitant and common theory spread through culture. Are there symbols innate in the human mind like Jung theorized. Why are most scientific theories evolutionary in a nature. Why are most scientific creation stories almost identical?[/quote] Touche! Sorry, I am new to this forum and am just reading these threads for the first time, so forgive if I respond to older posts. I assert that the Bavarian Motor Works do not exist. I have seen no evidence that it does. I believe that BMW’s are manufactured in China and that all this talk of “German engineering” is just a myth. The Chinese have developed this myth to bamboozle an unsuspecting public into believing that these vehicles are built in Germany. Until I have actually been to the Bavarian Motor Works, and have seen BMW’s rolling off the assembly line, I will not believe that it exists. But even then, how would I know that I was really in Germany, and not China. Just because I get on a plane and land someplace that I am told is Germany, how can I be sure that I really am in Germany? Unless my trip to Germany is overland with a GPS locater in my hand, so that I can actually see where I am going, I will never believe that I am in Germany. But wait a minute, those Chinese are pretty clever with electronics, too. They could still trick me into believing that I was in Germany, when I was really in China. Dang those Chinese. (They do make great BMW’s though.)
infinitelord1 Posted April 22, 2005 Posted April 22, 2005 we dont live in reality.........heaven is reality.
Melchisedec Posted April 22, 2005 Posted April 22, 2005 [quote name='zealousdefender' date='Apr 22 2005, 06:53 AM'] Touche! Sorry, I am new to this forum and am just reading these threads for the first time, so forgive if I respond to older posts. I assert that the Bavarian Motor Works do not exist. I have seen no evidence that it does. I believe that BMW’s are manufactured in China and that all this talk of “German engineering” is just a myth. The Chinese have developed this myth to bamboozle an unsuspecting public into believing that these vehicles are built in Germany. Until I have actually been to the Bavarian Motor Works, and have seen BMW’s rolling off the assembly line, I will not believe that it exists. But even then, how would I know that I was really in Germany, and not China. Just because I get on a plane and land someplace that I am told is Germany, how can I be sure that I really am in Germany? Unless my trip to Germany is overland with a GPS locater in my hand, so that I can actually see where I am going, I will never believe that I am in Germany. But wait a minute, those Chinese are pretty clever with electronics, too. They could still trick me into believing that I was in Germany, when I was really in China. Dang those Chinese. (They do make great BMW’s though.) [/quote] I dont believe you exist. For all I know your a bot written in Visual Basic.
zealousdefender Posted April 23, 2005 Posted April 23, 2005 [quote name='Melchisedec' date='Apr 22 2005, 02:04 PM'] I dont believe you exist. For all I know your a bot written in Visual Basic. [/quote] You're right. None of us on this site exist. There's only you... and you've been arguing with yourself for how long? :argue:
theculturewarrior Posted May 8, 2005 Author Posted May 8, 2005 [quote name='Melchisedec' date='Apr 21 2005, 09:53 AM'] You can purchase all these books on Amazon. If you want to attack the credibility of any of their works, I suggest you get the books and do an analysis of them. [/quote] I see we've got some new atheists, so I thought I would bump this discussion... Then I remembered I owe you a bibliography! Sorry, I've been busy with graduate school and work. (PS: I don't have to read these books to attack their credibility... I work in a library. )
theculturewarrior Posted May 8, 2005 Author Posted May 8, 2005 Objective v. Subjective Reality: [url="http://www.iep.utm.edu/o/objectiv.htm"]http://www.iep.utm.edu/o/objectiv.htm[/url] (Be sure to check out the skeptics' view of an objective reality.
theculturewarrior Posted May 8, 2005 Author Posted May 8, 2005 Objects of perception: [url="http://www.iep.utm.edu/p/perc-obj.htm"]http://www.iep.utm.edu/p/perc-obj.htm[/url]
theculturewarrior Posted May 8, 2005 Author Posted May 8, 2005 Theories of explanation: (ctrl + F for "anti-real")
theculturewarrior Posted May 8, 2005 Author Posted May 8, 2005 I don't remember if I posted this or not: [url="http://www.iep.utm.edu/f/faith-re.htm"]http://www.iep.utm.edu/f/faith-re.htm[/url] ^ Faith and Reason ^
theculturewarrior Posted May 8, 2005 Author Posted May 8, 2005 Sense data: [url="http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/sense-data/"]http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/sense-data/[/url]
theculturewarrior Posted May 8, 2005 Author Posted May 8, 2005 [url="http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/realism/"]http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/realism/[/url] ^Realism^ Look at this, it's one of the most hotly contested topics in Philosophy today... is reality real?
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