infinitelord1 Posted April 11, 2005 Share Posted April 11, 2005 I am sure that most of us have heard that before our earthly realm was created evil split away from good. I heard a story once that st. lucifer stole a bag of gold (while in heaven) and when god confronted him about it...he lied. God then gave lucifer the choice to hold his own throne....and he chose it. Did God want evil to exist? Why would God allow anything? For a reason right? Probably so that lucifer would be able to compare his current state to the state that he was in before (love). Would we have existed had lucifer never stole his bag of gold? No, there would be no reason for us to exist. I believe that we were made to choose between good and evil. Do we suffer because of the mistake that lucifer made? I dont know about everyone else, but i would have prefered to stay in a state of love. I would have never made the choice that lucifer made. Why do We have to suffer for the choice that some other entity made? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melchisedec Posted April 11, 2005 Share Posted April 11, 2005 [quote name='infinitelord1' date='Apr 11 2005, 02:50 PM'] I am sure that most of us have heard that before our earthly realm was created evil split away from good. I heard a story once that st. lucifer stole a bag of gold (while in heaven) and when god confronted him about it...he lied. God then gave lucifer the choice to hold his own throne....and he chose it. Did God want evil to exist? Why would God allow anything? For a reason right? Probably so that lucifer would be able to compare his current state to the state that he was in before (love). Would we have existed had lucifer never stole his bag of gold? No, there would be no reason for us to exist. I believe that we were made to choose between good and evil. Do we suffer because of the mistake that lucifer made? I dont know about everyone else, but i would have prefered to stay in a state of love. I would have never made the choice that lucifer made. Why do We have to suffer for the choice that some other entity made? [/quote] They say without free will that we would be like robots. But if that meant a world of nothing but love, than count me in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Semalsia Posted April 11, 2005 Share Posted April 11, 2005 [quote]Why do We have to suffer for the choice that some other entity made?[/quote] Forget about Satan. Don't we suffer for the choices God has made? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted April 11, 2005 Share Posted April 11, 2005 [quote name='Melchisedec' date='Apr 11 2005, 04:01 PM'] They say without free will that we would be like robots. But if that meant a world of nothing but love, than count me in. [/quote] Without free will, however, there would be no love. Love which is not freely given is not love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted April 11, 2005 Share Posted April 11, 2005 [quote name='Semalsia' date='Apr 11 2005, 04:09 PM'] Forget about Satan. Don't we suffer for the choices God has made? [/quote] We never suffer because of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted April 11, 2005 Share Posted April 11, 2005 [quote name='infinitelord1' date='Apr 11 2005, 03:50 PM'] Why do We have to suffer for the choice that some other entity made? [/quote] I don't get your story, since it isn't what happened, anyway. However, we suffer because we went along with that evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God Conquers Posted April 11, 2005 Share Posted April 11, 2005 I've definately never heard that story before. You're not suffering at anyone else's choices but your own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted April 11, 2005 Share Posted April 11, 2005 Okay...I have a simple question: is rape an act of love? Some suggest that if God made us without free will and we just gave back love to Him, that would be ideal because there would be no pain or suffering in the world. There are problems with this. First, God could NEVER make us both as creatures designed to return His love AND without free will. Love does not force a return of love. God, being all loving, MUST give us free will in order to love Him back...anything otherwise would be a self-contradiction. Even if He could make us both ways, it wouldn't be real love that we would be giving, but only fear. This would be the EXACT SAME THING as rape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted April 11, 2005 Share Posted April 11, 2005 Lucifer was proud of himself, decided to worship himself and refused to worship God. the problem was the nature of the angel was to love God, and so lucifer committed a sort of spiritual suicide in cutting himself apart from his Creator. anyway, yeah, I think Raph hit the nail on the head: the problem with all your premises so far is that you're not understanding the nature of love. it must be a free choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God Conquers Posted April 11, 2005 Share Posted April 11, 2005 Romans 5 12: Therefore, just as through one person sin entered the world, and through sin, death, and thus death came to all, inasmuch as all sinned Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted April 11, 2005 Share Posted April 11, 2005 Evil is allowed to exist because love is not forced upon us. I do find it remarkable that both infinite and Mel would rather give up free will then to suffer. That is what Christians recognize as subjecting their will for the will of God. We do suffer from other's evils. We add to the disorder of the world by little things we do, as well as big things. What everyone is quick to forget, is the effects of the good we do. Wasn't it Mel who said they volunteer 20 hours a week to help kids? That is no small thing and merits much more than a small reward. One of the principles of Christianity is that when we participate with Good (God), our efforts are magnified. Humanity always has a choice to do good or evil until God decides to end time, but not end our existence. Real choices must have real consequences. We are real and complex and sophisticated persons. Consequences are real and complex. Simple answers do not suffice to answer complex questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Semalsia Posted April 11, 2005 Share Posted April 11, 2005 [quote]We never suffer because of God.[/quote] Most of our lives are suffering and sadness. And because of things we have no control of. There's no free will involved. Who else effects these but God? Furthermore, suffering exists because of God. It was His choice to make it possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted April 11, 2005 Share Posted April 11, 2005 [quote name='Semalsia' date='Apr 11 2005, 05:18 PM'] Most of our lives are suffering and sadness. And because of things we have no control of. There's no free will involved. Who else effects these but God? Furthermore, suffering exists because of God. It was His choice to make it possible. [/quote] 1. Free will is involved. We suffer because of what we do as mankind. We are responsible for the evil we experience. That does not mean that a man who is killed caused his own death, but it does mean that because of the sins of mankind, that happened. In particular, because of the actions of the killer, a part of mankind. 2. Let's say that I am looking down from a 10th story window and I see a man fall into a manhole in the street. I allowed it to happen, didn't I? Does that mean I caused it? No. One could argue that I should have warned him, but God does that with us. He told us clearly and made us with consciences so that we would not fall into manholes. We chose to. That's our fault, not God's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Semalsia Posted April 11, 2005 Share Posted April 11, 2005 [quote]You're not suffering at anyone else's choices but your own.[/quote] Yeah, I guess getting raped is the victim's own choice. Her fault really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted April 11, 2005 Share Posted April 11, 2005 [quote name='Semalsia' date='Apr 11 2005, 05:26 PM'] Yeah, I guess getting raped is the victim's own choice. Her fault really. [/quote] That's not what was meant. Read my first point above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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