Before evil existed there was love (only)

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='Apr 11 2005, 04:50 PM'] Mankind isn't a single being, but consists of individuals. Innocent people suffer from the actions of others and you are saying that this is their fault, their choosing.

It should not be so in any just world.

Maybe you couldn't have stopped it even if you had tried. Do you mean to say that all the accidents and natural disasters are of our choosing? We choose the earthquakes to happen? In no way does that make sense to me. [/quote]
That is not at all what he is saying. He is stating that since there is free will one person will affect another, sometimes against the latter's will (eg: rape). Free will still plays a part because it was the will of the rapist to perform the action. The consent of the affected is not a prerquisite for will to enter the discussion.

Person A makes a choice.
Person B is affected by choice of Person A against B's will.
Free will was still involved in the choice of Person A and forced on Person B. Rapheal was not sayin the B willed it, but rather it was willed by someone (Person A).

As far as natural disasters go, that depends on how far along you believe in the Deuterocanonical principle...I do not think that people here are trying to make the case the people will natural disasters to happen. They are a fact of nature...

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='Apr 11 2005, 05:53 PM']
It's not a straw man. God made the nature of sin. Because of God the sins of others are affecting totally innocent people. This means God is unjust. [/quote]
That is only if you believe that suffering is totally devoid of any good. Suffering can be very redemptive and lead to great things. True it came from an evil, but God is able to bring a greater good out of any evil. Hmm..wait...that sounds like a theory of the existence of evil?

Greater good theory?
Maybe we can discuss the privation theory?

[Q the Ninja]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Apr 11 2005, 01:50 PM'] I am sure that most of us have heard that before our earthly realm was created evil split away from good. [/quote]
That sounds oddly Manachean. If that's the case, you should read Augustine's [i]Confessions[/i]. It might help some. If you don't like Catholic Saints, that's okay, his book is a fun read (and very poetic). Many literature/English classes read it.

Also, your conception of evil as a an existing thing is also in error. For this, I refer you to Saint Thomas' Summa, which talks about evil as a lack of something. Otherwise you'd have an evil god, which is impossible.

[quote]God then gave lucifer the choice to hold his own throne....and he chose it.[/quote]

I haven't actually heard this story.

[quote]Did God want evil to exist?  Why would God allow anything?[/quote]

God does not want evil to exist, but allows it insofar as he can bring good out of it. After the resurrection of the body, we'll actually be better off because of the great evil of the Death of Our Lord.

[quote]For a reason right? Probably so that lucifer would be able to compare his current state to the state that he was in before (love).[/quote]

God allowed it, but not for that reason, but for the reeason of free will. God allows people to freely choose Him, if he didn't then it's not much of a life. The angels have intellect, and as such have the freedom to choose. Lucifer chose pride, and through him sin entered into the universe.

[quote]Would we have existed had lucifer never stole his bag of gold?[/quote]

Actually, yes we would. God created us to know, love, and serve Him.

[quote]No, there would be no reason for us to exist. I believe that we were made to choose between good and evil.[/quote]

Why? There's no reason for us to exist if we are just here to choose between good and evil. It makes no sense, and you're going to have to give the best argument I've ever heard for anything before I come close to believing this.

God is a supreme being The highest thing He does is intellect (Aristotle). The highest thing we do, in His image, is intellect (Aristotle+Bible, Aquinas). Therefore, the best thing we can do (mirroring what God does) is contemplate the highest being, God. We could not have been created to go against our nature.

Also, when we do contemplate God, we end up with a higher freedom because we are using our free will in alignment with "the Good."

[quote]Do we suffer because of the mistake that lucifer made? I dont know about everyone else, but i would have prefered to stay in a state of love.[/quote]

But you also said we wouldn't have existed without Lucifer falling, which makes no sense. We fell because of the sin of Adam, "for just as through sin entered the world through one man..." We (Adam) chose sin, and it's not Satan's fault. If Adam didn't already have pride in his heart, he wouldn't have chosen the fruit. His choosing came from his pride and wanting to be like God (this is very Biblical).

[quote]I would have never made the choice that lucifer made. Why do We have to suffer for the choice that some other entity made?[/quote]

We don't suffer the choice of Lucifer/Satan, but the choice of Adam. And really, we don't suffer, we're lifted higher. We will be raised higher on the last day than Adam ever was, and really ever could have been.

Now, because of our fall, and our sins, we have the blessing of our Lord each week in Holy Communion (for Catholics). We have God becoming man, descending to be among us. There was a separation to begin with, because of our natures, but now that separation has been healed and closed somewhat because of God condescending to be among us.

And would you have made that choice? I don't know, and we'll never know. But we don't suffer from that.

Now, the reason we suffer from Adam is because of Original Sin. Through his sin, sin entered into the world. When he separated himself from God, his nature was corrupted. Because we descend from Adam, we too must suffer this corrupted (but now healed) nature.

To be honest, all we suffer from is the concupiscence, which we can overcome. Concupiscence is possible to overcome, and it's our fault that we don't.

Don't look at sin as a thing so much as an absense...an absense of our willingness to turn towards God.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='Apr 11 2005, 07:53 PM']
It's not a straw man. God made the nature of sin. Because of God the sins of others are affecting totally innocent people. This means God is unjust. [/quote]
God made free will, we choose to sin because we have free will.
But free will also enables us to make the choice to love.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Apr 12 2005, 09:43 AM'] God made free will, we choose to sin because we have free will.
But free will also enables us to make the choice to love. [/quote]
Amen. This is exactly the point.

Free will is not designed to allow us to reject God...it's designed to let us love Him completely (because without it, we could not love). We abuse it by using it to sin. That is not its purpose.

[Q the Ninja]

We are [i]allowed[/i] to suffer the sins of others because:

1) God brings good, purification, and closeness to Him from it (it's not necessary for us, but is a blessing).

2) We are given an opportunity to bring about good. It's really a blessing, too.

[rufiokicks]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Apr 12 2005, 10:48 AM'] Amen. This is exactly the point.

Free will is not designed to allow us to reject God...it's designed to let us love Him completely (because without it, we could not love). We abuse it by using it to sin. That is not its purpose. [/quote]
Finally! I was reading the beginning of the thread and I got worried that I would have to make that point. We were given free will so we can love God. The opposite of that love is sin. The Lord will never, EVER turn his back on any one of us. It's our choice, our free will, to turn our back on Him. God is always standing with his arms out to hold and love us, but with our sin we turn away from that agape love that he wants to give us. Our suffering is what makes us stronger. As humans we need the yin and the yang. Life can't just be 100% perfect, it's impossible. With our pain, we can learn to appreciate our happiness. You'll never learn to enjoy a good day if you haven't had any bad ones. Everything is just the same. Our sin may create the tragedy, but our good will creates the beauty of our world. I personally come from a bad family. Not the worst, but nowhere near the best. But instead of turning away from God and blaming him, I flipped my perspective. I've learned to see it as yes, terrible, but as a learning experience. I've turned my bad experiences around and now I use them to help other people. I've learned to weild the hand I've been dealt and turned it into something good. Your sin may hurt you, but if you learn from it, you can grow. Free will was given to us as a blessing so we can fully love the Lord. Without our free will there would be no point in existence. We weren't given free will so that we would be led to sin. God loved us so much that he wanted us to love him in return. It's not possible to love anyone without free will.