The Closed Table

[Priscilla]

I used to belong to a Christian fellowship which had (and still has) a strict Closed Table.

Why does Catholicism have one?

Do believe only Catholics will be saved?

[God Conquers]

We believe that communion is the body and blood of Jesus Christ.

Recieving comunion is both an act of community and an act of belief. By recieving you are saying "I believe everything which the Catholic CHurch believes, I am worthy to recieve, and I belong in some way to this community."

If you do not believe and are not worthy, as Paul says, you eat and drink condemnation on yourself. We don't wish that on non-believers.

[Brother Adam]

What do you mean 'A closed table"?

[mulls]

means that only members of your particular church/denomination are allowed to receive communion

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='God Conquers' date='Apr 12 2005, 07:57 AM'] We believe that communion is the body and blood of Jesus Christ.

Recieving comunion is both an act of community and an act of belief. By recieving you are saying "I believe everything which the Catholic CHurch believes, I am worthy to recieve, and I belong in some way to this community."

If you do not believe and are not worthy, as Paul says, you eat and drink condemnation on yourself. We don't wish that on non-believers. [/quote]
Amen.

It's not because of some discrimination...it's because we don't want God to be offended and we don't want non-Catholics to sin against God.

Nothing personal.

[Mateo el Feo]

Q&A from From USCCB website:

[url="http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/q%26a/mass/communion.shtml"]Can Non-Catholic Christians be admitted to sacramental communion in the Roman Catholic Church?[/url]

Edited April 12, 2005 by Mateo el Feo

[Priscilla]

[quote name='God Conquers' date='Apr 12 2005, 06:57 AM'] We believe that communion is the body and blood of Jesus Christ.

Recieving comunion is both an act of community and an act of belief. By recieving you are saying "I believe everything which the Catholic CHurch believes, [/quote]
True. I'm afraid I don't believe everything the Catholic church believes - but then there's usually something about every church which doesn't believe what I believe!!

Isn't it TRUE communion when you can break bread with someone you don't agree with totally - except for the fundamental tenets of the faith?

I take your point about eating condemnation to yourself.

Thing is, if someone believes in the Lord Jesus Christ, and belives that He died and rose again and is coming back in glory etc, and is seeking to live a holy life, who are you to judge? Isn't it like saying "Christ didn't die for you. You're not good enough to receive the body and blood of the Lord Jesus.".

And isn't it that every man should "EXAMINE HIMSELF" at the Lord's Table.

Surely also it is that: the LORD'S Table - not man's? Surely we are in danger of committing Elijah's sin (see Romans) when he said "Lord I am the only one" - but the Lord had to reprove him by saying "I have reserved myself 7000 who have not bowed the knee".

Surely we shouldn't go to communion with the attitude "Lord, we are the only ones with it all right" ??

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 12 2005, 01:24 PM'] Isn't it TRUE communion when you can break bread with someone you don't agree with totally - except for the fundamental tenets of the faith? [/quote]
No...it is true communion when we are one, as Christ prayed. That includes belief.

[Priscilla]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Apr 12 2005, 12:27 PM'] No...it is true communion when we are one, as Christ prayed. That includes belief. [/quote]
It's curtains for me then.

I can't agree with the Mariolatry and praying to dead saints in the Catholic church, (though i have thought about this a lot, and am still thinking about it - but it is still very foreign to me).

However, I personally would break bread with a Catholic if they wanted to do so with me (though I know they wouldn't of course: but I'm just saying, just because a Catholic doesn't believe what I do I wouldn't judge them unworthy of receiving the emblems).

I would break bread with anyone who confessed Jesus Christ is Lord and was seeking to lead a holy life.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 12 2005, 01:35 PM'] However, I personally would break bread with a Catholic if they wanted to do so with me (though I know they wouldn't of course: but I'm just saying, just because a Catholic doesn't believe what I do I wouldn't judge them unworthy of receiving the emblems). [/quote]
The problem is that it's not an emblem. It is Christ, Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity. By receiving Christ, you would be admitting that the tenets of Catholicism are true, since you would be admitting that you believe Christ gives His authority to this Church to make Him present. By permitting you to receive if you do not believe these things, we would be saying that belief doesn't matter. It most certainly does.

[Priscilla]

I guess we're getting into the realms of transubstantiation then?

I don't know much about that - all I know is that when I receive communion I believe it to be the body and blood of the Lord Jesus Christ - though it doesn't turn into human flesh in my mouth, not does the wine turn into human blood when I drink it; otherwise I would be able to taste it. What happens to it afterwards in my stomach I don't know.

I believe the bread should be unleavened personally: that is the bread which the Lord probably used as an emblem of His body because it was the Feast of Unleavened Bread and Passover.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 12 2005, 01:35 PM']I can't agree with the Mariolatry and praying to dead saints in the Catholic church[/quote]
Though the Church has found it necessary to correct those who divinize Mary, it is Biblical to honor Mary:
[quote name='Luke 1:48']For behold, henceforth all generations will call me (i.e. Mary) blessed.[/quote]
Regarding "dead saints," the Catholic Church teaches that the saints are alive with Our Lord, Jesus Christ. At the end of the Creed, we affirm this belief: "I believe in the Communion of Saints." This includes all those (past, present, future) who make up the Mystical Body of Christ.

For more info, see:

[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/mary_saints.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/mary_saints.asp[/url]

[b]The Eucharist[/b]

What is really important, though, is that the Most Holy Eucharist is not mere bread, a symbol of our communion. It is the body, blood, soul and divinity of Our Lord, Jesus Christ. Without a belief in this fact, it is disrepectful to feign a communion where one does not yet exist. I think that all religions deserve a basic respect towards the things that they consider sacred.

While we can and should break ordinary bread with non-Catholics, we should not jump-the-gun by sharing the Most Holy Eucharist:
[quote name='Saint Paul's First letter to the Corinthians 11:27' date=' 29'](27) Therefore whoever eats the bread and drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. (29)  For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself.[/quote]

By waiting until one is truly united to the Christ's Mystical Body, the Church, through Baptism and Confirmation, a Catechumen really can appreciate with anticipation and excitement the graces from God that will come from the first time he receives through Our Lord in the Eucharist.

God bless you!

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 12 2005, 01:59 PM'] I guess we're getting into the realms of transubstantiation then?

I don't know much about that - all I know is that when I receive communion I believe it to be the body and blood of the Lord Jesus Christ - though it doesn't turn into human flesh in my mouth, not does the wine turn into human blood when I drink it; otherwise I would be able to taste it. What happens to it afterwards in my stomach I don't know.

I believe the bread should be unleavened personally: that is the bread which the Lord probably used as an emblem of His body because it was the Feast of Unleavened Bread and Passover. [/quote]
I believe these may be helpful:

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05573a.htm#3"]Catholic Encyclopedia--Transubstantiation[/url]

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/407500.htm"]Summa Theologica--Transubstantiation[/url]

It is important to understand what [i]accidents[/i] are. The Eucharist, in order to change substance, does not require a change in what we call [i]accidents[/i], which are the outward traits which appeal to the senses.

It is providential that Our Lord does not always show Himself to us in the Eucharist. We are forced to have a little faith, then, and when we have received with believing hearts and the graces fill our lives, our faith is rewarded and our belief is confirmed. Belief in the Real Presence grows stronger and stronger.

Sometimes, however, the Lord [b]does[/b] choose to reveal Himself:

[img]http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/images/euchmn2m.jpg[/img]

[url="http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html"]The Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano[/url]

[infinitelord1]

rapheal,

I am catholic, but this issue i have struggled with too. I personally dont see anything wrong with a protestant accepting communion in a catholic church. Jesus never said "do this in memory of my church". He said, "Do this in memory of me". To reject the body and blood to anyone in my opinion is wrong. To judge their intentions on taking it is wrong too. Leave it up to god. Us catholics can only show them what we believe it symbolizes. Let them make a choice on what it is. Some of the things that i have read on this site are making me think that catholics in general just force stuff on people like this. Show me some biblical proof where it specifically says protestants shall not eat my bread in a catholic church. Do you think jesus would reject his body and blood to anyone?

[Mateo el Feo]

Sorry, I'm going to address some of this.

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Apr 12 2005, 02:18 PM']To judge their intentions on taking it is wrong too. Leave it up to god.[/quote]
I think that the issue here is listening to their own stated beliefs, not judging some unseen "intentions."

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Apr 12 2005, 02:18 PM']Us catholics can only show them what we believe it symbolizes. Let them make a choice on what it is.[/quote]
This particular slippery slope leads us to whether non-Christians should licitly receive the Eucharist. To the extreme: should Satanists receive the Eucharist? If not for them, why not?

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Apr 12 2005, 02:18 PM']Some of the things that i have read on this site are making me think that catholics in general just force stuff on people like this.[/quote]
Jesus Christ said "I am the way, the Truth, and the life." He didn't say he is just one alternative. Some end up sensitizing themselves to the beliefs of others until--at some point--they must reject their own beliefs. This is not healthy ecumenism.

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Apr 12 2005, 02:18 PM']Show me some biblical proof where it specifically says protestants shall not eat my bread in a catholic church.[/quote]
Quoted above, Saint Paul's words could be used as Biblical proof, though neither protestants nor the Catholic Church are explicitly mentioned...LOL!

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Apr 12 2005, 02:18 PM']Do you think jesus would reject his body and blood to anyone?[/quote]
Yes. To anyone who does not fully accept Him.

[infinitelord1]

so what u are saying mateo......god rejects people......just as people reject god. Since jesus would reject his body and blood to someone at all. Doesnt god love all of his creatures.....even sataninists? please give me a quote from the bible that puts a limit on the people who can recieve the eucharist (preferebly from the 4 gospels). And i am sick of people always taking what i wrote (In bits and pieces) and just making little comments on them. Please, if you have feedback or a comment on what i say.......give premises before you give an answer.....show me logically how you came to the conclusion. Not just......"Yes, to anyone who does not fully accept him". That is not gonna convince me. Its like going up to a protestant and telling them that catholicism is the 100% truth (then turning around and walking away). Please tell me why jesus would turn people away from his flesh and blood.

[infinitelord1]

nevermind...sorry mateo......u are right......pauls letter to the corinthians says it all.

[infinitelord1]

But why didnt jesus make clear what paul did?

[infinitelord1]

so the bread that protestants eat and the wine they drink.......to them are symbols......because of this.....are they still subject to bringing forth judgement on themselves according to verse corinthians 11:29?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Apr 12 2005, 02:18 PM'] rapheal,

I am catholic, but this issue i have struggled with too. I personally dont see anything wrong with a protestant accepting communion in a catholic church. Jesus never said "do this in memory of my church". He said, "Do this in memory of me". To reject the body and blood to anyone in my opinion is wrong. To judge their intentions on taking it is wrong too. Leave it up to god. Us catholics can only show them what we believe it symbolizes. Let them make a choice on what it is. Some of the things that i have read on this site are making me think that catholics in general just force stuff on people like this. Show me some biblical proof where it specifically says protestants shall not eat my bread in a catholic church. Do you think jesus would reject his body and blood to anyone? [/quote]
Thank you for your reply. You are carrying an attitude which I myself once held. The problem with that attitude is an unwillingness to see others upset. It is a concern that if you deny someone something, then you are denying them a right.

The problem is that the Eucharist is not a right.

The Eucharist is Christ's Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity. It is Christ Himself.

It is Christ, the Bridegroom, presenting Himself to the Bride, the Church. It is the consummation of the marriage between Christ and the Church. What would you think if a bride said to her husband, "I don't believe in you" or "I don't trust you or have faith in you," but then had sex with him so that she could fit in. That's essentially the idea. "I want to be like the other people at this Church; so whether I believe or not, I'm going to receive." It is a view that the Eucharist, that Mass, is an outward sign meant only to show our common heritage and that it is not a saving faith in God Almighty.

We are called to be one. Not to appear as if we are one. We are actually called to be one. A person who receives the Eucharist without believing in the Church is like a bride who becomes one flesh with her husband, but refuses to be with him in any other way. It is a cheapening of the sex act, and in a parallel way, a cheapening of the Mass, and therefore, salvation itself. It is a reducing of all that is sacred to a mere process or form.

You are correct, Christ said, "do this in memory of Me." One who does not acknowledge the Bride does not acknowledge the Bridegroom. They are of one flesh. The Bride, not the Maid of Honor, receives the Bridegroom. Unless one is fully a part of the Church, it is commiting adultery with God to receive the Eucharist.

Christ would most certainly refuse to give Himself to someone who refused to believe in all of His teachings. Don't get me wrong...He WANTS to give Himself to everyone, but if a person will not accept Him, He does not want to be abused, and He certainly does not want to allow someone to use Him for adultery. He doesn't want to allow Himself to be the means for someone to commit grave evil. He doesn't want to help anyone be two-faced.

St. Paul says not to eat Our Lord unworthily. One who rejects the faith which brings the Eucharist into the world is most certainly unworthy. You shall not accept the product if you hate the maker.

Moreover, our Catholic Church says that Protestants should not receive Our Lord.

Why would they want to? They don't even believe in it! The only reasons are for an outward appearance of community and for vanity.

This is called orthodoxy. It is a firm believe in what our Church teaches, knowing that what the Church teaches and what Christ teaches are one in the same. Christ said that the wheat would be separated from the chaff. He knows that not everyone will be orthodox. He does not want us to give up the truth in order to maintain a false resemblance of unity. What looks unified on the outside may be divided on the inside, but what is unified on the inside is unified also on the outside.

We pray that people may come to believe in the truths of the Church, but if we let them have an outward show of unity with us, while not having true unity, then we make them liars.

If they refuse the faith, and as a result, we weaken the faith and change to accomodate them, then we are violating their free will. We are saying to them that it is so important that they appear to be unified with us that we are going to forsake truth in order to tell them, "no, you can't go away. You can't refuse us. We'll just change to include you." They try to refuse and we won't let them. We are denying them the free will they have.

The best we can do is present the truth, the absolute truth, unyielding, and pray that they accept it. We can be kind to them. We must be charitable, but to allow them to think that they have faith when they don't, to keep them in a false sense of truth, to let them think that they have hope of salvation, even when they have rejected it, is NOT charitable.