The Closed Table

[infinitelord1]

so what u are saying mateo......god rejects people......just as people reject god. Since jesus would reject his body and blood to someone at all. Doesnt god love all of his creatures.....even sataninists? please give me a quote from the bible that puts a limit on the people who can recieve the eucharist (preferebly from the 4 gospels). And i am sick of people always taking what i wrote (In bits and pieces) and just making little comments on them. Please, if you have feedback or a comment on what i say.......give premises before you give an answer.....show me logically how you came to the conclusion. Not just......"Yes, to anyone who does not fully accept him". That is not gonna convince me. Its like going up to a protestant and telling them that catholicism is the 100% truth (then turning around and walking away). Please tell me why jesus would turn people away from his flesh and blood.

[infinitelord1]

nevermind...sorry mateo......u are right......pauls letter to the corinthians says it all.

[infinitelord1]

But why didnt jesus make clear what paul did?

[infinitelord1]

so the bread that protestants eat and the wine they drink.......to them are symbols......because of this.....are they still subject to bringing forth judgement on themselves according to verse corinthians 11:29?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Apr 12 2005, 02:18 PM'] rapheal,

I am catholic, but this issue i have struggled with too. I personally dont see anything wrong with a protestant accepting communion in a catholic church. Jesus never said "do this in memory of my church". He said, "Do this in memory of me". To reject the body and blood to anyone in my opinion is wrong. To judge their intentions on taking it is wrong too. Leave it up to god. Us catholics can only show them what we believe it symbolizes. Let them make a choice on what it is. Some of the things that i have read on this site are making me think that catholics in general just force stuff on people like this. Show me some biblical proof where it specifically says protestants shall not eat my bread in a catholic church. Do you think jesus would reject his body and blood to anyone? [/quote]
Thank you for your reply. You are carrying an attitude which I myself once held. The problem with that attitude is an unwillingness to see others upset. It is a concern that if you deny someone something, then you are denying them a right.

The problem is that the Eucharist is not a right.

The Eucharist is Christ's Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity. It is Christ Himself.

It is Christ, the Bridegroom, presenting Himself to the Bride, the Church. It is the consummation of the marriage between Christ and the Church. What would you think if a bride said to her husband, "I don't believe in you" or "I don't trust you or have faith in you," but then had sex with him so that she could fit in. That's essentially the idea. "I want to be like the other people at this Church; so whether I believe or not, I'm going to receive." It is a view that the Eucharist, that Mass, is an outward sign meant only to show our common heritage and that it is not a saving faith in God Almighty.

We are called to be one. Not to appear as if we are one. We are actually called to be one. A person who receives the Eucharist without believing in the Church is like a bride who becomes one flesh with her husband, but refuses to be with him in any other way. It is a cheapening of the sex act, and in a parallel way, a cheapening of the Mass, and therefore, salvation itself. It is a reducing of all that is sacred to a mere process or form.

You are correct, Christ said, "do this in memory of Me." One who does not acknowledge the Bride does not acknowledge the Bridegroom. They are of one flesh. The Bride, not the Maid of Honor, receives the Bridegroom. Unless one is fully a part of the Church, it is commiting adultery with God to receive the Eucharist.

Christ would most certainly refuse to give Himself to someone who refused to believe in all of His teachings. Don't get me wrong...He WANTS to give Himself to everyone, but if a person will not accept Him, He does not want to be abused, and He certainly does not want to allow someone to use Him for adultery. He doesn't want to allow Himself to be the means for someone to commit grave evil. He doesn't want to help anyone be two-faced.

St. Paul says not to eat Our Lord unworthily. One who rejects the faith which brings the Eucharist into the world is most certainly unworthy. You shall not accept the product if you hate the maker.

Moreover, our Catholic Church says that Protestants should not receive Our Lord.

Why would they want to? They don't even believe in it! The only reasons are for an outward appearance of community and for vanity.

This is called orthodoxy. It is a firm believe in what our Church teaches, knowing that what the Church teaches and what Christ teaches are one in the same. Christ said that the wheat would be separated from the chaff. He knows that not everyone will be orthodox. He does not want us to give up the truth in order to maintain a false resemblance of unity. What looks unified on the outside may be divided on the inside, but what is unified on the inside is unified also on the outside.

We pray that people may come to believe in the truths of the Church, but if we let them have an outward show of unity with us, while not having true unity, then we make them liars.

If they refuse the faith, and as a result, we weaken the faith and change to accomodate them, then we are violating their free will. We are saying to them that it is so important that they appear to be unified with us that we are going to forsake truth in order to tell them, "no, you can't go away. You can't refuse us. We'll just change to include you." They try to refuse and we won't let them. We are denying them the free will they have.

The best we can do is present the truth, the absolute truth, unyielding, and pray that they accept it. We can be kind to them. We must be charitable, but to allow them to think that they have faith when they don't, to keep them in a false sense of truth, to let them think that they have hope of salvation, even when they have rejected it, is NOT charitable.

[Aloysius]

Christ didn't give His apostles the Eucharist until after 3 years of rigourous teaching

consider yourselves lucky, the Church will give you the Eucharist after only one year of weekly classes

[Mateo el Feo]

Hello InifiniteLord1,

I'm sorry for offending you. I really didn't mean to infer anything from your statements. Instead, I wanted to offer some thoughts on the risks of particular positions that can result from those statements (if that makes sense!).

[quote]And i am sick of people always taking what i wrote (In bits and pieces) and just making little comments on them.[/quote]
I am sorry. I think like an engineer, and engineers break problems into manageable pieces.

[quote]Its like going up to a protestant and telling them that catholicism is the 100% truth (then turning around and walking away). Please tell me why jesus would turn people away from his flesh and blood.[/quote]
I hear what you're saying. It's a bit difficult to figure out where someone wants to drill down into the details of a topic, so please be patient with me.

Please let me know if you would still like me to answer any other questions in you posts.

God bless you!

[Jake Huether]

Wow! That was a very thorough and cheritable response. Thanks, Raph!


I would only be repeating what has already been said...

But God bless you, infinitelord1 and Priscilla.

Pray about it. God will open it up before you.


Jesus tells us in Matthew 7:22

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Clearly Jesus will indeed be rejecting some. Not because He wants too, but only because it is just.

I may really really want to break Bread with you, but because the Bread that is broken is the Body of Christ, it is unjust for one who does not believe so to recieve Him.

Although I may really really want to recieve your communion, it is unjust for me to do so, because I do not believe what your church professes.


Also, one last comment to Priscilla. May the peace of Christ fill your heart. It sounds like you are really searching out a church that will fit your beliefs (as you yourself said there is probably no church that believes what you do). I cannot stress enough the fact that, as Jesus says, "God's ways are not our ways". We cannot seach out a church that matches best our own beliefs! It's just as easy to write down what you believe and just start your own church. It is better to search out what God set as Truth, and then conform your beliefs (no matter how painful it may be) to that. This is what Catholics have done for 2000 years. We must lay down our will, even what it is difficult to believe, for the Will of God.

May the Light of Christ fill us all with Joy!

[MC Just]

I dont see protestants bending their knees. I see them dancing, singing, clapping, waving their hands in the air, some barking like dogs, oinking like pigs. etc.. I have never seen protestants bend their knees, or is "bending the knee" just symbolic?

As for Catholics we bend our knees. Unlike the protestant Mariam and Korahs.

[Quietfire]

[quote]True. I'm afraid I don't believe everything the Catholic church believes - but then there's usually something about every church which doesn't believe what I believe!![/quote]

See, this is your biggest obstacle. Especially this part.

[quote]which doesn't believe what I believe!![/quote]

The world cannot revolve around what this or that persons believes, one can only follow Christ or nothing at all. If you must find a church that 'fits' your beliefs, to believe in what you believe in, then you must ask yourself if you are truly following Christ or your own personal wants and needs?

Following Christ means carrying the cross.
Many of Christs teachings were difficult for most to follow. That is why, when Christ made it clear that we must eat his flesh and drink his blood, only 12 of the original 72 got up and walked out because

[quote]which doesn't believe what I believe!![/quote]

Pax

[mulls]

priscilla what kind of fellowship did you used to belong to?

[Priscilla]

[quote name='mulls' date='Apr 12 2005, 09:44 PM'] priscilla what kind of fellowship did you used to belong to? [/quote]
I'm a "Heinz 67 Variety" type Christ: I've been all over the place (Methodist, High Anglican, Baptist, United Reform).

But the church I belonged to which had (and still has) a Closed Table is the Christadelphian.

Christadelphian beliefs are the very opposite to Catholic ones; and that's why it intrigues me that the one thing they DO agree on is the Closed Table! (confused? I am!)

It is why I resigned from the Christadelphian - you see, I married a Christian (a non-Christadelphian) and it would have meant that I could not have received Communion with my husband: so we would have been separated at the Lord's Table: which is wrong, so I resigned. But it was painful.

Most churches used to have a Closed Table: when I was confirmed a Methodist 20 years ago they had a Closed Table then - they don't any longer.

I don't know - I can see the arguments from both sides.

I've had this issue out with the Christadelphians on a Christadelphian Forum; and they quote the exact same Scriptures which all of you are quoting to support their doctrine on it.

[Priscilla]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Apr 12 2005, 02:49 PM'] so the bread that protestants eat and the wine they drink.......to them are symbols......because of this.....are they still subject to bringing forth judgement on themselves according to verse corinthians 11:29? [/quote]
Having received communion in non-Catholics churches since I was 15, I do not think they eat and drink judgement upon themselves (though some do if they are leading an unholy life).

I believe that Catholics can eat and drink judgement on themselves too: if they take the Eucahrist, and then go out an abuse children, or commit fornication - they will be eating and drinking judgement upon themselves.

This Scripture does not apply to "protestant" believers only.

[Priscilla]

[quote name='Jake Huether' date='Apr 12 2005, 03:38 PM'] Jesus tells us in Matthew 7:22

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Clearly Jesus will indeed be rejecting some. Not because He wants too, but only because it is just.


[/quote]
I know. That's what the prots say about each other and about Catholics.

D'you know what? I sometimes feel like Pilate who asked a very good question:

"WHAT IS TRUTH?"

'Cos I don't know a lot of things. The older I get, the less I know. I know very little - I just pray God be merciful to me a sinner.

[quote]I may really really want to break Bread with you, but because the Bread that is broken is the Body of Christ, it is unjust for one who does not believe so to recieve Him.

[/quote]

I know. I wouldn't break bread with a Muslim or Hindu or anyone like that: I'm talking about simple folk who truly believe in the Lord Jesus. I couldn't break bread with unbelievers or anything like that: but it just seems so arrogant to get up and walk out of a church or a room where they are having communion because they do not believe in exactly the same doctrines as we do (say over the devil, or heaven or hell etc).

It is unholy living which is the only grounds for separation at the Lord's Table surely?

[Priscilla]

[quote name='MC Just' date='Apr 12 2005, 08:37 PM'] I dont see protestants bending their knees. I see them dancing, singing, clapping, waving their hands in the air, some barking like dogs, oinking like pigs. etc.. I have never seen protestants bend their knees, or is "bending the knee" just symbolic?

[/quote]
I know - good point. Not all prots do that though! The Christadelphians didn't - they are very quiet and respectful round the Lord's Table. but some Pentecostal churches apparently have communion in a most innappropriate manner - which is why I won't go to them. It did happen once though:

Last year I was at a Sunday morning service at a Pentecostal church one day (I don't belong to any church at all by the way, we just went there to meet with some Jewish friends who were on holiday from Amsterdam), and I felt unhappy during the meeting. As it approached to the Breaking of Bread, I felt like getting up and walking out. In my carnal mind, I thought "I don't want to break bread with this lot!"

Being in somewhat of a spiritual turmoil about it, I cried out to God (in my heart - not out loud of course) "Lord, help me! What do you want me to do?" I immediately wanted to turn to the Scriptures. When I was in Christadelphian fellowship 11 years ago I often used to read a portion of Scripture while the bread and wine was being passed round, and one of my most favourite passages was from John 6. So I turned to this in desperation, needing some comfort of my Christadelphian days.

As I read the words of the Lord Jesus, my feelings began to change:

"I am the bread of life. He who comes to me shall never hunger, and he who believes in me shall never thirst.... ALL THAT THE FATHER GIVES ME WILL COME TO ME AND THE ONE WHO COMES TO ME I WILL BY NO MEANS CAST OUT.......This is the will of the Father who sent me, that of all He has given me I SHOULD LOSE NOTHING, but should raise it up at the last day: and this is the will of Him who sent me, that EVERYONE WHO SEES THE SON, AND BELIEVES IN HIM may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day......"

From feeling turmoil and wanting to get up and walk out, the words of Jesus change my anger and from being antagonistic towards the Christians in that church, I felt they were sheep without a shepherd; and from feeling very judgemental towards them I suddenly felt the love of Jesus in my heart for them: perhaps Jesus' heart was breaking for them too, but He still loves them: those Christians were there because they loved the Lord Jesus, and they loved Him because He first loved them.

So I took bread and wine in that church in remembrance of the Lord's love for us. After all, the Lord Jesus did die for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD didn't He?

One of the reason I think I found it so uncomfortable is that knowledge brings responsibility - so because of the knowledge I had from my Christadelphian heritage, I felt responsible breaking bread with people who hadn't got that same knowledge. But surely this is not a principle of fellowship?


Anyhow, some Catholics like dancing: I had one joining in some Israeli dancing over the weekend a Salvation Army evening meeting! They really liked it and said they wish they could it do that at church events instead of barn dancing.

David danced before the Lord with all his might.

However, I agree, I do not think dancing is appropriate during Communion.

But if it is a parable of a wedding - then there's always the dancing after the wedding isn't there? There is nothing wrong with dancing as a form of worship to the Lord, surely? (If it's done in a godly manner with modest dress)

[quote]As for Catholics we bend our knees.  Unlike the protestant Mariam and Korahs.[/quote]

I will bend my knee before the Lord any day. In fact, I've come to realise the best place to before the Lord is flat on the floor with our face towards the ground.

I do like reverence, and I will gladly bend my knees for my Lord and Saviour any day. (But not to Mary or any of the dead believers)

But I agree - THERE IS A LOT OF STRANGE FIRE OFFERED IN PROTESTANT CHURCHES. Too true.