The Closed Table

[Aloysius]

Christ didn't give His apostles the Eucharist until after 3 years of rigourous teaching

consider yourselves lucky, the Church will give you the Eucharist after only one year of weekly classes

[Mateo el Feo]

Hello InifiniteLord1,

I'm sorry for offending you. I really didn't mean to infer anything from your statements. Instead, I wanted to offer some thoughts on the risks of particular positions that can result from those statements (if that makes sense!).

[quote]And i am sick of people always taking what i wrote (In bits and pieces) and just making little comments on them.[/quote]
I am sorry. I think like an engineer, and engineers break problems into manageable pieces.

[quote]Its like going up to a protestant and telling them that catholicism is the 100% truth (then turning around and walking away). Please tell me why jesus would turn people away from his flesh and blood.[/quote]
I hear what you're saying. It's a bit difficult to figure out where someone wants to drill down into the details of a topic, so please be patient with me.

Please let me know if you would still like me to answer any other questions in you posts.

God bless you!

[Jake Huether]

Wow! That was a very thorough and cheritable response. Thanks, Raph!


I would only be repeating what has already been said...

But God bless you, infinitelord1 and Priscilla.

Pray about it. God will open it up before you.


Jesus tells us in Matthew 7:22

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Clearly Jesus will indeed be rejecting some. Not because He wants too, but only because it is just.

I may really really want to break Bread with you, but because the Bread that is broken is the Body of Christ, it is unjust for one who does not believe so to recieve Him.

Although I may really really want to recieve your communion, it is unjust for me to do so, because I do not believe what your church professes.


Also, one last comment to Priscilla. May the peace of Christ fill your heart. It sounds like you are really searching out a church that will fit your beliefs (as you yourself said there is probably no church that believes what you do). I cannot stress enough the fact that, as Jesus says, "God's ways are not our ways". We cannot seach out a church that matches best our own beliefs! It's just as easy to write down what you believe and just start your own church. It is better to search out what God set as Truth, and then conform your beliefs (no matter how painful it may be) to that. This is what Catholics have done for 2000 years. We must lay down our will, even what it is difficult to believe, for the Will of God.

May the Light of Christ fill us all with Joy!

[MC Just]

I dont see protestants bending their knees. I see them dancing, singing, clapping, waving their hands in the air, some barking like dogs, oinking like pigs. etc.. I have never seen protestants bend their knees, or is "bending the knee" just symbolic?

As for Catholics we bend our knees. Unlike the protestant Mariam and Korahs.

[Quietfire]

[quote]True. I'm afraid I don't believe everything the Catholic church believes - but then there's usually something about every church which doesn't believe what I believe!![/quote]

See, this is your biggest obstacle. Especially this part.

[quote]which doesn't believe what I believe!![/quote]

The world cannot revolve around what this or that persons believes, one can only follow Christ or nothing at all. If you must find a church that 'fits' your beliefs, to believe in what you believe in, then you must ask yourself if you are truly following Christ or your own personal wants and needs?

Following Christ means carrying the cross.
Many of Christs teachings were difficult for most to follow. That is why, when Christ made it clear that we must eat his flesh and drink his blood, only 12 of the original 72 got up and walked out because

[quote]which doesn't believe what I believe!![/quote]

Pax

[mulls]

priscilla what kind of fellowship did you used to belong to?

[Priscilla]

[quote name='mulls' date='Apr 12 2005, 09:44 PM'] priscilla what kind of fellowship did you used to belong to? [/quote]
I'm a "Heinz 67 Variety" type Christ: I've been all over the place (Methodist, High Anglican, Baptist, United Reform).

But the church I belonged to which had (and still has) a Closed Table is the Christadelphian.

Christadelphian beliefs are the very opposite to Catholic ones; and that's why it intrigues me that the one thing they DO agree on is the Closed Table! (confused? I am!)

It is why I resigned from the Christadelphian - you see, I married a Christian (a non-Christadelphian) and it would have meant that I could not have received Communion with my husband: so we would have been separated at the Lord's Table: which is wrong, so I resigned. But it was painful.

Most churches used to have a Closed Table: when I was confirmed a Methodist 20 years ago they had a Closed Table then - they don't any longer.

I don't know - I can see the arguments from both sides.

I've had this issue out with the Christadelphians on a Christadelphian Forum; and they quote the exact same Scriptures which all of you are quoting to support their doctrine on it.

[Priscilla]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Apr 12 2005, 02:49 PM'] so the bread that protestants eat and the wine they drink.......to them are symbols......because of this.....are they still subject to bringing forth judgement on themselves according to verse corinthians 11:29? [/quote]
Having received communion in non-Catholics churches since I was 15, I do not think they eat and drink judgement upon themselves (though some do if they are leading an unholy life).

I believe that Catholics can eat and drink judgement on themselves too: if they take the Eucahrist, and then go out an abuse children, or commit fornication - they will be eating and drinking judgement upon themselves.

This Scripture does not apply to "protestant" believers only.

[Priscilla]

[quote name='Jake Huether' date='Apr 12 2005, 03:38 PM'] Jesus tells us in Matthew 7:22

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Clearly Jesus will indeed be rejecting some. Not because He wants too, but only because it is just.


[/quote]
I know. That's what the prots say about each other and about Catholics.

D'you know what? I sometimes feel like Pilate who asked a very good question:

"WHAT IS TRUTH?"

'Cos I don't know a lot of things. The older I get, the less I know. I know very little - I just pray God be merciful to me a sinner.

[quote]I may really really want to break Bread with you, but because the Bread that is broken is the Body of Christ, it is unjust for one who does not believe so to recieve Him.

[/quote]

I know. I wouldn't break bread with a Muslim or Hindu or anyone like that: I'm talking about simple folk who truly believe in the Lord Jesus. I couldn't break bread with unbelievers or anything like that: but it just seems so arrogant to get up and walk out of a church or a room where they are having communion because they do not believe in exactly the same doctrines as we do (say over the devil, or heaven or hell etc).

It is unholy living which is the only grounds for separation at the Lord's Table surely?

[Priscilla]

[quote name='MC Just' date='Apr 12 2005, 08:37 PM'] I dont see protestants bending their knees. I see them dancing, singing, clapping, waving their hands in the air, some barking like dogs, oinking like pigs. etc.. I have never seen protestants bend their knees, or is "bending the knee" just symbolic?

[/quote]
I know - good point. Not all prots do that though! The Christadelphians didn't - they are very quiet and respectful round the Lord's Table. but some Pentecostal churches apparently have communion in a most innappropriate manner - which is why I won't go to them. It did happen once though:

Last year I was at a Sunday morning service at a Pentecostal church one day (I don't belong to any church at all by the way, we just went there to meet with some Jewish friends who were on holiday from Amsterdam), and I felt unhappy during the meeting. As it approached to the Breaking of Bread, I felt like getting up and walking out. In my carnal mind, I thought "I don't want to break bread with this lot!"

Being in somewhat of a spiritual turmoil about it, I cried out to God (in my heart - not out loud of course) "Lord, help me! What do you want me to do?" I immediately wanted to turn to the Scriptures. When I was in Christadelphian fellowship 11 years ago I often used to read a portion of Scripture while the bread and wine was being passed round, and one of my most favourite passages was from John 6. So I turned to this in desperation, needing some comfort of my Christadelphian days.

As I read the words of the Lord Jesus, my feelings began to change:

"I am the bread of life. He who comes to me shall never hunger, and he who believes in me shall never thirst.... ALL THAT THE FATHER GIVES ME WILL COME TO ME AND THE ONE WHO COMES TO ME I WILL BY NO MEANS CAST OUT.......This is the will of the Father who sent me, that of all He has given me I SHOULD LOSE NOTHING, but should raise it up at the last day: and this is the will of Him who sent me, that EVERYONE WHO SEES THE SON, AND BELIEVES IN HIM may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day......"

From feeling turmoil and wanting to get up and walk out, the words of Jesus change my anger and from being antagonistic towards the Christians in that church, I felt they were sheep without a shepherd; and from feeling very judgemental towards them I suddenly felt the love of Jesus in my heart for them: perhaps Jesus' heart was breaking for them too, but He still loves them: those Christians were there because they loved the Lord Jesus, and they loved Him because He first loved them.

So I took bread and wine in that church in remembrance of the Lord's love for us. After all, the Lord Jesus did die for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD didn't He?

One of the reason I think I found it so uncomfortable is that knowledge brings responsibility - so because of the knowledge I had from my Christadelphian heritage, I felt responsible breaking bread with people who hadn't got that same knowledge. But surely this is not a principle of fellowship?


Anyhow, some Catholics like dancing: I had one joining in some Israeli dancing over the weekend a Salvation Army evening meeting! They really liked it and said they wish they could it do that at church events instead of barn dancing.

David danced before the Lord with all his might.

However, I agree, I do not think dancing is appropriate during Communion.

But if it is a parable of a wedding - then there's always the dancing after the wedding isn't there? There is nothing wrong with dancing as a form of worship to the Lord, surely? (If it's done in a godly manner with modest dress)

[quote]As for Catholics we bend our knees.  Unlike the protestant Mariam and Korahs.[/quote]

I will bend my knee before the Lord any day. In fact, I've come to realise the best place to before the Lord is flat on the floor with our face towards the ground.

I do like reverence, and I will gladly bend my knees for my Lord and Saviour any day. (But not to Mary or any of the dead believers)

But I agree - THERE IS A LOT OF STRANGE FIRE OFFERED IN PROTESTANT CHURCHES. Too true.

[Priscilla]

[quote name='Quietfire' date='Apr 12 2005, 09:17 PM']
See, this is your biggest obstacle. Especially this part.



The world cannot revolve around what this or that persons believes, one can only follow Christ or nothing at all. If you must find a church that 'fits' your beliefs, to believe in what you believe in, then you must ask yourself if you are truly following Christ or your own personal wants and needs?

Following Christ means carrying the cross.
Many of Christs teachings were difficult for most to follow. That is why, when Christ made it clear that we must eat his flesh and drink his blood, only 12 of the original 72 got up and walked out because



Pax [/quote]
I know QuietFire - you're right.

But my point was that I WILL have communion with others even if they have not reached the same degree of Biblical knowledge as me. Is that more clear?

You must get this in catholicism surely? You will get simple souls who just love the Lord, and you will get other more intellectual types who have a sound knowledge and understanding of Scriptural mysteries and church hiistory - but you would still celebrate Mass with the ignorant Catholic as you would with the knowledgeable Catholic?

My point is that surely the [i]true[/i] principle of fellowship is acceptance of another person who loves the Lord Jesus and is seeking to live a holy life and follow His commands (regardless of the degree of knowledge and understand they have).

It's all very cosy and comforting when a sect believes the same thing (more or less) and that's really great. [b]It's easy to accept someone you agree with[/b]: don't even the 'publicans and sinners' do the same. Surely the true test of fellowship is acceptance at the foot of the cross in bread and wine of brethren and sisters who may not have the same knowledge as you do?

Any way - here's a question: Would you rather break bread with, say, a Prot who is leading a holy life, or with a Catholic who (unbeknown to the Chruch before it all comes out) is committing abusing a child? (I know of several such cases: I'm not judging them, Jesus died for their sins - I'm just stating a fact).

Anyhow - I'm not desperately to go to Mass or anything - as I say, I have problems even walking into a Catholic church because of the idols, but I'm interested in all your views on it.

Interesting post from Raphael too; s ome very good points there Raph!

[Archangel]

[quote]Any way - here's a question: Would you rather break bread with, say, a Prot who is leading a holy life, or with a Catholic who (unbeknown to the Chruch before it all comes out) is committing abusing a child? [/quote]
I would rather receive communion with the Catholic at mass rather than the Protestant at his service.

The bread and wine at a Catholic mass truly become the Body and Blood of Jesus. This does not happen at Protestant services.

Whatever sins Catholics commit in their lives does nothing to diminish the Real Presence in the Eucharist.

[Priscilla]

[quote name='Archangel' date='Apr 13 2005, 05:39 AM']
The bread and wine at a Catholic mass truly become the Body and Blood of Jesus. This does not happen at Protestant services.

[/quote]
This is just your belief and mind-set on it.

How do you know it becomes the Body and Blood of the Lord Jesus? Can you taste the flesh, and taste the blood in your mouth?

Blood has a very specific taste, and human flesh would need an awful lot of chewing.

[Brother Adam]

John 6:55

[Priscilla]

[quote name='Archangel' date='Apr 13 2005, 05:39 AM'] I would rather receive communion with the Catholic at mass rather than the Protestant at his service.

The bread and wine at a Catholic mass truly become the Body and Blood of Jesus. This does not happen at Protestant services.

Whatever sins Catholics commit in their lives does nothing to diminish the Real Presence in the Eucharist. [/quote]
I've known and know quite a few Catholics who aren't even "born again". They are just Catholics because they were brought up as one.

It makes more sense to have communion with a prot who was truly born again and had a living faith in the Lord Jesus and a personal relationship with Him, than a Catholic who didn't really know what they believed and just said a few rosary prayers now and again.

However, I guess it's judge not that we be not judged.

[Priscilla]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Apr 13 2005, 06:40 AM'] John 6:55 [/quote]
I believe that Scripture - but for me the bread has never turned into real human flesh which I have to chew, and the wine has never turned into real human blood which I have to taste. However, nevertheless I still believe that the emblems are the Body and Blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Most Catholics don't drink the wine anyhow. Just a little tinkle on the bell is all they get isn't it?

Whether they change after they have been swallowed - I don't know. That is for God to decide, though I doubt it. That does not alter the truth of the words of the Lord though.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 13 2005, 08:33 AM'] This is just your belief and mind-set on it.

How do you know it becomes the Body and Blood of the Lord Jesus? Can you taste the flesh, and taste the blood in your mouth?

Blood has a very specific taste, and human flesh would need an awful lot of chewing. [/quote]
No this is actually the teaching of the Church founded by Jesus Christ. However if you are in a man-made group, then of course errors have crept in.

So Holy Communion is the Body Blood Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ because he said it was. This has been Church teaching for 2000 years.
St Paul even states it.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 13 2005, 05:56 AM']Having received communion in non-Catholics churches since I was 15, I do not think they eat and drink judgement upon themselves (though some do if they are leading an unholy life).

I believe that Catholics can eat and drink judgement on themselves too:  if they take the Eucahrist, and then go out an abuse children, or commit fornication - they will be eating and drinking judgement upon themselves.

This Scripture does not apply to "protestant" believers only.[/quote]
This is an interesting perspective. Since I've generally encountered protestants who believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved" (OSAS), I figured that protestants thought that they could never "eat or drink judgment on themselves" by sharing in a purely symbolic communion. Heck, if no actual sin can keeping them from eternal union with God in heaven, why should there be a problem with eating bread as a symbolic union with God? (I'd really like to know how you would answer this question.)

To address your point regarding Catholics, it's interesting that you mention that some non-Catholics can lead an "unholy life" (nice and non-specific), while you mention that Catholics can abuse children and commit fornication. Do you see the emotional tugging in this contrast you've made?

Anyway, my first comment is this: your hypothetical situation is flipped around: we don't eat/drink judgment when we receive the Eucharist before we sin; we eat/drink judgment when we receive the Eucharist [b]after[/b] we sin--assuming we haven't confessed our sin. (Note: I'm just talking about mortal sins, here--see [url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/1john/1john5.htm#v17"]1 John 5:17[/url])

In this discussion, you shouldn't limit yourself to two sexual sins. Getting away from the focus on sex (which isn't the only sin!), any single mortal sin causes us to lose sanctifying grace. God forbid we would die in such a state! But, Catholics should not receive the Eucharist when they are conscious of unrepentant mortal sin--doing so, they would certainly "eat and drink judgment upon themselves."

[b]Non-Catholics[/b]

I think that a better way to understand the restriction as it applies to non-Catholics is to look at the sacraments. The Eucharist assumes an ongoing relationship with Jesus Christ, and incorporation in His Mystical Body the Church through the sacraments of Initiation: Baptism and Confirmation.

A parallel would be pre-marital sex and cohabitation between a couple who intends to marry. The wedding (i.e. initiation) precedes the married life. Even if the two believe they were going to be married the next day, they abstain from sexual relations until they have been married. Interestingly, the engaged couple that does not abstain before their wedding commits the sin of fornication, and "eat and drink judgment on themselves."

God bless you.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 13 2005, 06:29 AM'] I have problems even walking into a Catholic church because of the idols, but I'm interested in all your views on it. [/quote]
Just a little tangent: there is a difference between "idols" and "statues." If you consider statues to be idolotry, you'd better re-read the Old Testament. God commanded the use of statues--even to Moses. I'd be happy to discuss this further in another thread. I don't want to get totally off topic here!

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 13 2005, 06:10 AM'] I know. I wouldn't break bread with a Muslim or Hindu or anyone like that: I'm talking about simple folk who truly believe in the Lord Jesus. I couldn't break bread with unbelievers or anything like that: but it just seems so arrogant to get up and walk out of a church or a room where they are having communion because they do not believe in exactly the same doctrines as we do (say over the devil, or heaven or hell etc).

It is unholy living which is the only grounds for separation at the Lord's Table surely? [/quote]
A couple more little points:

1) You'll be happy to know that non-Catholics don't have to leave the church during communion. They (along with Catholics who don't feel disposed to receive communion) simply remain in the pews...and nobody gives it a second thought!

2) Regarding grounds for separation at the Lord's table, there are a variety of reasons for not receiving communion: not keeping the one-hour fast before receiving (pretty hard not to!), not being old enough (no babies), not having been baptiised/confirmed, etc.

No one can assume the motivations of a person who chooses not to receive communion, so it's not a big deal. I can't imagine people looking at someone who remains in the pew and saying, "Well, they must be damned!" LOL! In fact, I usually gain a lot of respect for those who remain in the pews, because it shows a reverence and understanding of the importance of the Holy Eucharist.

God bless!