Evolution vs Creation

[Priscilla]

[quote]No, we have no official stance, except on a few things in creation that had to happen.[/quote]

Such as?

How come there is "no official stance" on Creation in the Catholic Church?

I do not understand this?

Death entered the world through sin, but if you believe in evolution then you must believe that death came befre sin.

Surely this is back to front?

[jezic]

The stance of the Catholic church has been and is that God did it. Either way, it doesn't matter a whole lot most of us. There needs to be no debate.

God started it and He did it how he wanted to. The end.

[Paphnutius]

I believe that it is because it is arbitrary on many points. The Church holds that God is the creator, not that He created in manner X, Y, and Z. Death did enter the world, but which way are you talking about, physical death or spiritual death? Remember sin is turning away from God, choosing something lesser, that does indeed cause a type of death. It could also be because the Church deals with matters of faith and morals, not of physics and chemistry.

[Theoketos]

You need to read Humanae Generis for the official Catholic Stance, Jezic summed it up.

At the same time, Catholics must reject Darwinism, because it is anti-transcendtal and anti-metaphysical.

Still further, why Catholics do believe in the first humans being Adam and Eve, and original sin, ect, Genesis is ment to be a myth about creation. This does not mean that we think it is untrue. But in sense we understand it to be something more then a mere scientific account.

[cmotherofpirl]

God created everything. God will end everything.
All the rest is minor details.

[MichaelFilo]

I'm indoctrined to be an evolutionist... but my heart wants to embrace Creationism (I have more or less Traditionalist leanings).

The problem is, it doesn't matter. God created, and it was made. We need not bother ourselves over it, or in other words, it is much ado about nothing.

God bless,
Mikey

[crusader1234]

You know those arguments childish people have about conflicts? How somebody gets punched in the face and it goes back and forth about who did, and it turns out about a million different things happened leading to the punch? Well, the same goes for evolution. Who knows exactly what happened. But God started it!

[Brother Adam]

I'm a hard core creationist. Light theory and other scientific claims lean too strongly in the wind of creationism. Evolution, even theistic evolution has so many problems with it, it is ALMOST absurd to hold to it.

One of those things I will work on in the Church in full communion as a member of the Bride of Christ.

[Dudette]

I just read all of Humani Generis 2 weeks ago and did a test on it.

Evolution: not logical, not realistic.

Creation: logical, realistic. The way it was

[God Conquers]

Who cares?

We're here. We know we are created. We know we are sinners. We know Christ has died for us and redeemed us.

I think scientific inquiry is important, but there is no need to take strict positions. You can recognize evolution in nature yet reject Darwin's interpretation, while at the same time understanding the transcendental nature of God in Creation and even illuminated by science.

[Brother Adam]

You can only recognize micro-evolution in nature, and it does matter because you are giving athiests a foothold. Athiesm, who John Paul calls one of the serious problems of our time.

I've gone through it before with hard core non-theistic evolutionists. I've watched them tear through theistic evolutionists, but have a harder time touching creationists. I've seen men move from Christ to athiesm over this issue.

Every moment is a moment of evangelization. This one included.

[Melchisedec]

[quote]You can only recognize micro-evolution in nature,[/quote]

Wrong. We have observed evolution in the wild. Url included.

[url="http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2001/03/26/MN172778.DTL"]Evolution of Songbirds and salamanders[/url]

More Info here:
[url="http://www.talkorigins.org"]TalkOrigins[/url]

[quote] and it does matter because you are giving athiests a foothold. Athiesm, who John Paul calls one of the serious problems of our time.[/quote]

So are you basicly saying to discard evidence simply out of your fear of atheism. I'm not suprised.

[quote]I've gone through it before with hard core non-theistic evolutionists. I've watched them tear through theistic evolutionists, but have a harder time touching creationists. I've seen men move from Christ to athiesm over this issue.
[/quote]

Creationism is a stance against evolution out of fear. There is not one shred of evidence to support creationism. Its not even a scientific theory. Its simply an assertion. One that says 'god did it'. If you know a creationist who can convert athiest into christians through their overwhelming evidence for creationism. Infidelguy radio show would love to debate them. Imagine all the souls you could save.

Edited April 14, 2005 by Melchisedec

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='Dudette' date='Apr 13 2005, 07:18 PM']

[/quote]
[quote]
Evolution: not logical, not realistic.[/quote]

How so?

[quote]
Creation: logical, realistic. The way it was [/quote]

Explain please?

Nice shoes btw

[infinitelord1]

i believe in evolution, and no i dont believe that evolution came before sin....i believe that sin happened before the creation of the universe. Because of sin....I believe the universe was created. Man wasnt given free will until adam and eve..... but before adam and eve there was still evil (sin).

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Apr 13 2005, 10:03 PM'] Because of sin....I believe the universe was created. Man wasnt given free will until adam and eve..... but before adam and eve there was still evil (sin). [/quote]
Just curious as to why you think that...

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Apr 13 2005, 09:56 PM']
Wrong. We have observed evolution in the wild. Url included.

[url="http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2001/03/26/MN172778.DTL"]Evolution of Songbirds and salamanders[/url]

More Info here:
[url="http://www.talkorigins.org"]TalkOrigins[/url]



So are you basicly saying to discard evidence simply out of your fear of atheism. I'm not suprised.



Creationism is a stance against evolution out of fear. There is not one shred of evidence to support creationism. Its not even a scientific theory. Its simply an assertion. One that says 'god did it'. If you know a creationist who can convert athiest into christians through their overwhelming evidence for creationism. Infidelguy radio show would love to debate them. Imagine all the souls you could save. [/quote]
I don't fear athiesm. Athiesm is a position of the fear of the unknown. Faith scares you because you can't understand it. All you are capable of believing in is what is in front of your nose. The idea that creationism is spawned out of evolution is debunkable by a lesson in history a second grader could do.

And that URL is a lame excuse for evidence in macro-evolution.

Here is some basic exploration for your study on both sides of the issue:

[url="http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum&f=36&DaysPrune=1000&submit=Go"]http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultima...=1000&submit=Go[/url]

[Melchisedec]

[quote]I don't fear athiesm. Athiesm is a position of the fear of the unknown. Faith scares you because you can't understand it.
[/quote]

How so?

[quote]
All you are capable of believing in is what is in front of your nose[/quote]

Ridiculous statement.

[quote]. The idea that creationism is spawned out of evolution is debunkable by a lesson in history a second grader could do[/quote]

I await your lesson maestro.

[quote]
And that URL is a lame excuse for evidence in macro-evolution. [/quote]

Your ignorance is aparent. You deny evidence simply because you choose to.

[quote]Here is some basic exploration for your study on both sides of the issue:
[url="http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum&f=36&DaysPrune=1000&submit=Go"]http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultima...=1000&submit=Go[/url]
[/quote]

I will check this out and comment further after I have looked it over.

[Priscilla]

All very interesting. Thanks you for all your comments everyone.

I agree with Brother Adam.

Just a few other comments: since I am a keen aquarist, I observe natural selection in my fish tanks all the time: but natural selection is different to evolution. My fish could naturally select for a zillion, willion years, and they'd still end up fish. There's no way a fish can turn into anything except a fish. But they will be strong healthy fish, because the strong healthy fish get to survive over the weak puny fish.

If you believe in evolution you have to believe that death came first before sin into the world. Evolution believes in death as a process: not as a punishment.
Creationists discern that death is a punishment for sin.

When God cursed the ground because of Adam's sin, this also affected the animal kingdom - they animals were made from the dust of the ground and they too now suffer - which is why the whole of creation groans and longs for the sons of God to be revealed (Romans).

[philothea]

I'm curious.

How do those of you who are creationists explain fossil history?

[cmotherofpirl]

First I think everyone needs to define their working definition of creationism and evolution or a better explanation of what they beleive etc.

Me:
God created everything. The fossil records say it took millions and billions then fine, because scienctific truth and God's truth are one and the same. Genesis never claims to be a scientific account of the beginnings. So God took his time and did it right. Do some species change? Of course. Do they do everything the evolutionists claim. Probably not without help. Only God could invent a platypus.

At some point God added human souls to the mix: whether He started a new species or altered one already here that doesn't matter either. We are here.
This is where our faith history starts in Genesis. This part matters
So the teaching stories in Genesis down to Abraham tell us our faith history. Abraham down the line tells us our family history.