The Storm before the Calm

[luciana]

[quote name='Luthien' date='Apr 20 2005, 08:54 PM'] Saying a man lookes evil because he has dark circles is

its called genetics, not intristic evil.

I like Papa Ben... [/quote]
I have dark circles, since I was like 5. :ph34r: Concealer is good.

Look at Mother Teresa; I don't think anyone would mock her looks.


Certain ethinc groups w/ high melanain in their skin have dark circles.

[Catholictothecore]

Pope Benedict XVI was involved in the Hitler Youth by force...he did not participate in any of their activities. Hitler was having his way. Pope Benedict's father was as active against Hitler as you could be and remain alive, and Pope Benedict himself was a desserter from the army. FOR THIS BURDEN, THIS VOCATION, WAS HE CREATED!

And I say this with love for all of you, who agree with me or don't. But Pope Benedict is the Supreme Pontiff, the Vicar of Chirst, and our Papa.

[luciana]

[quote name='Ash Wednesday' date='Apr 20 2005, 10:14 PM'] Hi JimFurst!

I really enjoyed your honest and well thought out post, and I have a lot of respect for what you have had to say. I have a deep respect for people that may not always find teachings easy but don't take the easy way out. I have been down that same path, sometimes still am. I used to be, I suppose, more of a "liberal" than I am now (I'm 28). I truly believe in the name of "openness" and "tolerance" that means listening to what people have to say on both sides of the coin (gasp, even those "conservatives!"), really thinking things through, and praying along the way, even if the teachings at times might be hard to fully understand.

If more "liberals" were like you, then maybe it wouldn't have become such a bad word.

In the end I guess there is no "liberal" and "conservative" as a goal. There is "Catholic!"

Welcome to phatmass. :tiphat: [/quote]
Welcome JimFurst,

I like how you understand that following Jesus by obeying his Church is not always easy. putting our trust in Him, we realize the yoke is light, when we do His will and don't take the easy way out.

Like Ash Wednesday, I don't like the terms "liberal" or "conservative" (though if I had to use them I'd say I'm more conservative than her though I'm about her age 29 ), but I prefer the term '"faithful Catholic", putting our Faith in Him following the Lord and His Church.

[myduwigd]

ok, wow I love how no one is listening to me at all. Im not attacking him, IM just saying that he looks scary. Also, this man used to be a Nazi. No, he is not beyond redemption for that fact, but he should never be in a position of spiritual authority. There are some things that a person just simply cannot do and recover from. It would take the rest of one's life to be healed and fight the consequences.
also, dont you dare call me Satan ever again. That is something that you dont want to make a mistake about. I really wish that you guys would sit down and pray about what im saying. I dont just go around bashing people and calling them evil all the time. You know that. Its called spiritual correction and love when i do it. No, the HOly Spirit didnt make a mistake, but the cardinals could have. The HOly SPirit cant force you to listen to Him.

[thicke]

[quote name='myduwigd' date='Apr 20 2005, 09:54 PM'] also, dont you dare call me Satan ever again. That is something that you dont want to make a mistake about. I really wish that you guys would sit down and pray about what im saying. I dont just go around bashing people and calling them evil all the time. You know that. Its called spiritual correction and love when i do it. No, the HOly Spirit didnt make a mistake, but the cardinals could have. The HOly SPirit cant force you to listen to Him. [/quote]
I wasn't technically calling you "satan" any more than Christ called Saint Peter "satan" in Matt 16:23. I suggest you go read it real quick and you'll understand. Also, you need to have a little more faith in the Holy Spirit. Papa Ben was his choice no matter what the other red hats did.....

[luciana]

Hi, Regarding someone calling you Satan: They were using the part from the gosples where Jesus rebukes St. Peter, saying "Get behind me, Satan" when he suggests that Our Lord shouldn't suffer His passion. he was saying that Peter was thinkin in th terms of this world; he wasn't literally calling him the devil. So, using that quote means don't get stuck on worldly concerns. We're all hearing a lot of junk spoken aginst our new Holy Father so it's understandable to get very defensive. Don't focus on the worldly criticism of our Holy Father, like the media spin on his youth (See the above post re. the hitler youth) If you're feeling fear, remeber what Our Lord told his disciples, and JPII told us always "Be not Afraid" the holyspirit guides the cardinals in their decision, the gates of hell will not prevail. Instead of listening to the stupid media reports, read our new Holy Father's words, check out his previous written work. Don't judge on appearances, look at the heart.

BTW, I saw a picture of his deceased mother whenshe was an elderly little Bavarian woman, and he looks just like her, dark circles and all.

[Aloysius]

have you ever read anything by this BRILLIANT THEOLOGIAN? This holy man who has deep humility and a strong orthodox Catholic Faith, or is it just that he's a scary looking nazi?

I hate to burst your bubble, but you have been grossly lead astray by the media: let me clear up some things:

involvement in the Hitler Youth was MANDATORY. If you blame him for doing all he could to avoid being in a concentration camp you have to blam Ann Frank's family for hiding from the Nazis. We're a bunch of cowards that have known nothing but freedom and peace judging Ratzinger for just surviving while chaos abounded all around him

his father was staunchly anti-nazi and helped to keep him out of the hitler youth and such as much as possible, but at some point it becomes impossible to avoid without being thrown into a concentration camp.

anyway, read something by him, he is a brilliant theologian. if you're getting all this carp from the media about Dominus Iesus, read Truth and Tolerance to hear Ratzinger's full thoughts on the issue...

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='myduwigd' date='Apr 20 2005, 10:16 PM'] ok, wow I love how no one is listening to me at all. Im not attacking him, IM just saying that he looks scary. Also, this man used to be a Nazi. No, he is not beyond redemption for that fact, but he should never be in a position of spiritual authority. There are some things that a person just simply cannot do and recover from. It would take the rest of one's life to be healed and fight the consequences.
also, dont you dare call me Satan ever again. That is something that you dont want to make a mistake about. I really wish that you guys would sit down and pray about what im saying. I dont just go around bashing people and calling them evil all the time. You know that. Its called spiritual correction and love when i do it. No, the HOly Spirit didnt make a mistake, but the cardinals could have. The HOly SPirit cant force you to listen to Him. [/quote]
John Paul lived under a oppressive communist leadership, does that make him an evil atheistic communist? Did it make him a bad Pope having that background? No. He did not choose it, not did he accept it. Papa Ben did not choose to "support" Hitler. He was forced. He never accepted it. He got out of it before he was forced to fight. Yes, its still in his background, like JPII has the communism in his background, but they never accepted those evils. Papa Ben is awesome and orthodox. Nothing can change that. Not looks, not background. Not the media. Benedict XVI will be the same person, the same Joseph Ratzinger we know and love, and silly "hunches" wont change it.

[Ash Wednesday]

[quote name='myduwigd' date='Apr 20 2005, 10:16 PM'] Also, this man used to be a Nazi. [/quote]

That comes across worse than the whole "scary" comments.

I understand if you may have trepidations and expressing those are fine. But I think you need to be a little more considerate and thoughtful about how you put those concerns into words.

If you ever fought in the Marines under George W. Bush, does that automatically make you a Republican?

The Jewish community has been supportive of his election, which I doubt they would be if he really was ever a "Nazi." Being a Nazi means subscribing to their ideology, and Ratzinger never did.

[shelly_freak]

I have so many mixed feelings (just like it seems pm does). I have faith in the Holy Spirit and that he was the right choice but at the same time I'm scared. As you all prolly know I'm pretty liberal and well I can't help but think will he take back everything Vatacin II put in place? I agree that there needs to be more orthodoxy and I would love to see more reverence towards the eucharist (something I think is taken much too lightly) but at the same time shouldn't the church be progressing with the people? Maybe it's just because I've never known another pope, he just seems soooo diffrent. But it's all in God's plan so I guess all we can do is wait and see, I'm sure he'll have an impact on the church.

[Ash Wednesday]

Don't worry shelly, I don't think he will do anything to throw out Vatican II, at least how Vatican II was meant to be, because it was a legitimate Church Council and no pope could possibly do this. He might "reform the reform" and continue what John Paul has clarified, but that won't mean undoing the council.

I get the feeling that the Church is just taking time to regroup and tighten a few reigns here and there before the next "big step" as far as the future is concerned (for example, a 3rd world papacy) I too, love "people popes" like JP2, but after stepping back to think about it, I can understand why they have Ratzinger at the helm for the time being. I get the sense that some administrative and disciplinarian problems would ideally be resolved for the next few years before they get another big travelling-man pope.

I am beginning to learn that each pope is different for a reason.

"Different Popes for Different Folks"

[CatholicAndFanatical]

[quote]
Also, this man used to be a Nazi.
[/quote]

Im sure it wasnt meant to sound bad. However, and this goes for anyone, Please, PLEASE for the Love of GOD do NOT say this in public.

how awful it would be if people actually believed this.

The Holy Father deserted the military because he didnt agree with it. That makes him a brave soul to stand up to them and get out. Not a nazi.

[ardillacid]

ugh, did you see how one paper called him "papa ratzi"? That was [I]sick

ardillacid who eats food

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='JimFurst' date='Apr 20 2005, 08:42 PM'] I've always considered myself to be liberal.  When I was growing up it wasn't such a dirty word.  It meant an openess to ideas; a willingness to examine other points of view.  I still see myself as "liberal" and there are many Catholics from my generation (just turned 50) who also see themselves as liberal.  Although many are not as likely to use the word these days as it as come to be equated with "evil."

That being said, while I have some difficulties with some teachings of the Church, I accept them and follow them to the best of my ability---and will continue to do so.
This was how I was taught to be a Catholic.  You follow the Church's teaching.  Thats the way it its.  Period!  Others like me will follow.

I see no Catholic "civil war" on the horizon, and if one were to occur it would be destructive.  I see no good coming from it.  ( Maybe thats my "liberal bent" speaking.)  Tearing the Church apart would not be good for anyone.  The Catholic Church does not want schism.  It wants unity.  Its the universal Church.  Our new Pope knows this.

As far as Pope Benedict XVI looking evil,  this is just ridiculous.  Lets see what he does, not what he looks like he'll do.  I wish him the best and will follow his teachings despite my liberal tendencies. 

(And don't say I'm not really liberal)

I have more problems then simply being liberal.  I wear bi-focals now. (graded lense)

Jim [/quote]
Jim, welcome.

Our firm adherence to orthodoxy is not an attempt to keep others out of Heaven, nor to make ourselves elite, but it is love of Our Lord, Truth Himself, which compels us to follow truth unyieldingly. We hope for all to come to this love of truth.

The problem with abandoning orthodoxy for the sake of unity is that it doesn't preserve unity in any way, shape, or form. If we abandon what we hold as truth for the sake of an outward appearance of unity, then we make several mistakes:

1. We choose unity with each other over unity with God.

2. Our internal unity rots and crumbles away.

3. The faith is reduced to no more than touchy-feely-huggy theology which is no longer based on salvation, but on feeling good.

4. We violate the free will of those who wish to reject the Church, by insisting so strongly that they cannot that we abandon our foundation to try to force the faith (by this point a pseudo-Catholicism) on them, just so they can be called Catholic.

This leads us to one conclusion for what must be done. Above all, we must maintain our internal unity, that is, we must let the faith be what binds us and not hand-holding and "agreeing to disagree." Nothing which is internally unified is externally torn to shreds. If we maintain our internal unity, we can be assured that we will show our external unity. The problem we face, then, is that we will undoubtedly lose members when we fight for strict adherence (I do not mean you, since you have said that despite your opinions, you follow as best you can). We will lose members, this is true. Christ said that He is the vine and we are the branches and that those branches which do not bear much fruit will be removed and burned. As we know, pruning causes immediate damage and leaves wounds, but those wounds heal and more fruit grows than originally would have. Since a person who is only nominally Catholic is no better off than a person who completely outwardly rejects the faith, there can be no direct grave effects on the salvation of souls by drawing a line in the sand, but rather, as with the penalty of excommunication, such "hardlines" would bring about a revival and a return to the faith by those who truly wish to follow truth...and for those who don't, it would make no difference.

Let the external show forth the internal. To do otherwise is to deceive.

I am glad that despite your difficulties, you follow the Church. Keep that attitude.

This is a wonderful place to ask questions and learn more about why the Church teaches what it does, if you like.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='ardillacid' date='Apr 21 2005, 01:35 AM'] ugh, did you see how one paper called him "papa ratzi"? That was [I]sick

ardillacid who eats food [/quote]
Actually, the Vatican Press Office was calling him that.