Who Is All-knowing ?

[ayed]

In the name of Allah, the most Merciful, the most Gracious

Hi,Phatmass peers .

I had some informative debates on this forum some months ago. My English sometimes kicks me off the track of debate on which I and you be. However, I always try to bridge the linguistic gap between me and you so that we could discuss, explain and exchange ideas, thoughts and knowledge.

Kindly, no digression or evasion .I am always serious when asking such a question. Let us start :

1-Who could explain the meaning of attribute “omniscient -- all-knowing”?
2-Is it applicable to any entity?

I am waiting to reading your informative and helpful short answers and comments.

Thank you in advance,


Ayed

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Omniscience is that trait which belongs to God alone. There are two main categories of knowledge: God and creation. God must know Himself and God must know creation. Naturally, God would know creation, since He made it. Additionally, He would also know Himself, since He loves Himself (in a good way and not a prideful way). Therefore, God knows Himself and creation, and is all-knowing. Knowing in this sense not only implies passively having some bit of information. It shows deep and personal involvement in that which is being known.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='ayed' date='Apr 22 2005, 10:09 AM'] In the name of Allah, the most Merciful, the most Gracious

Hi,Phatmass peers .

I had some informative debates on this forum some months ago. My English sometimes kicks me off the track of debate on which I and you be. However, I always try to bridge the linguistic gap between me and you so that we could discuss, explain and exchange ideas, thoughts and knowledge.

Kindly, no digression or evasion .I am always serious when asking such a question. Let us start :

1-Who could explain the meaning of attribute “omniscient -- all-knowing”?
2-Is it applicable to any entity?

I am waiting to reading your informative and helpful short answers and comments.

Thank you in advance,


Ayed [/quote]
Ayed,

Would you like to provide your own answers to these questions? I suspect you have some answers.

Honestly, I can't see how Christianity and Islam differ on this point. Maybe there's some apologetic point you're trying to make. If so, please just lay it on the table--please no evasion, no digression, no Socratic method.

God bless you.

[Mateo el Feo]

Just to put my post into context: I have seen Muslim apologetists attempt to use proof-texting of the Holy Bible on a similar topic. I believe that the citation was Mark 13:32.

I don't want to assume that you are going down a pre-defined apologetic path; but it would make discussions easier if you would be upfront if you have something in mind. Lay your cards on the table. The Truth of God is better served by direct and open discussion.

[ayed]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' date='Apr 22 2005, 09:27 PM'] Just to put my post into context: I have seen Muslim apologetists attempt to use proof-texting of the Holy Bible on a similar topic. I believe that the citation was Mark 13:32.

I don't want to assume that you are going down a pre-defined apologetic path; but it would make discussions easier if you would be upfront if you have something in mind. Lay your cards on the table. The Truth of God is better served by direct and open discussion. [/quote]

Mr.Mateo el Feo , why are you in a hurry?
Just be patient till we have more answers.
thanks

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='ayed' date='Apr 22 2005, 01:26 PM']
Mr.Mateo el Feo , why are you in a hurry?
Just be patient till we have more answers.
thanks [/quote]
Not to butt in, but it is the prudent thing to do: let you partners in discussion be aware of an agenda so they may prepare.

[Mateo el Feo]

Your post just confirmed my theory. Let's go through the Socratic method. The "short answers" are:

1) For Christians, "All knowing" means "All knowing."
2) For Christians, we apply this attribute to God.

OK, that's the cue for you--the Socratic teacher--to make your point. No evasion, please.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Apr 22 2005, 02:37 PM'] Not to butt in, but it is the prudent thing to do: let you partners in discussion be aware of an agenda so they may prepare. [/quote]
You really should become a canon lawyer.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Apr 22 2005, 03:06 PM'] You really should become a canon lawyer. [/quote]
ugh, that take so much work.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Apr 22 2005, 04:15 PM'] ugh, that take so much work. [/quote]
Even better...knowing what a grammar nut you are, this inconsistency in your quoted grammar proves that you'd make an excellent attorney...or politician...

[Paphnutius]

There is a difference between the spoken and written word. I am much more of an orator than a man of letters.

Edited April 22, 2005 by Paphnutius

[ayed]

[quote]Raphael: Omniscience is that trait which belongs to God alone...God must know Himself and God must know creation. Naturally, God would know creation, since He made it…God knows Him and creation, and is all-knowing. Knowing in this sense not only implies passively having some bit of information. It shows deep and personal involvement in that which is being known[/quote].

Rapahael , you have just asserted the trait "Omniscient"only to Allah .However, read what is adduced in the Book of Genesis :

"[color=red]And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?(Genesis 3:9)[/color]


Thanks for all
Ayed

Edited April 23, 2005 by ayed

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='ayed' date='Apr 23 2005, 01:48 PM'] .

Rapahael , you have just asserted the trait "Omniscient"only to Allah .However, read what is adduced in the Book of Genesis :

"[color=red]And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?(Genesis 3:9)[/color]


Thanks for all
Ayed [/quote]
By no means am I a biblical scholar, but I do not think that it shows that God is not omniscient. I have always read that as God calling Adam to be responsible for his actions. It is not that God was unaware of where Adam was hiding, but rather that God called Adam out of hiding to enact justice and at the same time mercy. It does not say that God was unaware of where Adam was, that is something that you are reading into it implicitly. I may know that someone is hiding behind a door, and I may call for that person to expose himself saying "Where are you?". That, however, does not mean that I was unaware of where he was. I think there is more behind it to God not seeing where Adam was.

I refer you to Psalm 139:

[quote] 1-4 O Lord, you search me and you know me, you know my resting and my rising, you discern my purpose from afar. You mark when I walk or lie down, all my ways lie open to you.

Before ever a word is on my touge you know it, O Lord, through and through. Behind and before you besiege me, your hand ever laid upon me. Too wonderful for me this knowledge, too high, beyond my reach.

7-8 O where can I go from your spirit, or where can I flee from your face? If I climb the heavens, you are there. If I lie in the grave, you are there. [/quote]]

So as you can see by testimony of the Psalm. The Lord does know your every action and every move, before it is even actualized.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='ayed' date='Apr 23 2005, 02:48 PM'] .

Rapahael , you have just asserted the trait "Omniscient"only to Allah .However, read what is adduced in the Book of Genesis :

"[color=red]And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?(Genesis 3:9)[/color]


Thanks for all
Ayed [/quote]
I don't think that disproves His omniscience at all. Sometimes we ask questions when we already know they answer, to make a point or to make someone else answer it for their sake rather than for ours.

[Crispy]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Apr 23 2005, 04:13 PM'] I don't think that disproves His omniscience at all. Sometimes we ask questions when we already know they answer, to make a point or to make someone else answer it for their sake rather than for ours. [/quote]
well said Raphael

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Apr 22 2005, 04:57 PM'] There is a difference between the spoken and written word. I am much more of an orator than a man of letters. [/quote]
You are quite the speaker. Very emphatic.

[Cathurian]

I don't mean to drag this off-topic, but I can't PM him and I'm curious...

Ayed, I was wondering if you also post on the Word Reference forums? There is someone called ayed who posts there, and I thought you might be the same person.

If so, we post on two of the same forums. Hahaha.

[ayed]

[quote name='Cathurian' date='Apr 24 2005, 08:14 PM'] I don't mean to drag this off-topic, but I can't PM him and I'm curious...

Ayed, I was wondering if you also post on the Word Reference forums? There is someone called ayed who posts there, and I thought you might be the same person.

If so, we post on two of the same forums. Hahaha. [/quote]
Yes, how smart you are!

[ayed]

[quote]Paphnutius :
I do not think that it shows that God is not omniscient. I have always read that as God calling Adam to be responsible for his actions. It is not that God was unaware of where Adam was hiding, but rather that God called Adam out of hiding to enact justice and at the same time mercy. It does not say that God was unaware of where Adam was, that is something that you are reading into it implicitly. I may know that someone is hiding behind a door, and I may call for that person to expose himself saying "Where are you?” that, however, does not mean that I was unaware of where he was. I think there is more behind it to God not seeing where Adam was[/quote]

First, Allah is indisputably All-knowing. Think not that I am ignorant of Allah’s traits, our Creator.

Second, how did you know what you have interpreted above is the eye of trueness? Are you a contemporary to the biblical scribes when they compiled this book?

Third, forget not that your holy books have been always undergone, distortions, insertions and amendments. Thus; you have many various biblical editions such as KJV and the like.

"Where are you" does prove inconsistency of your books.

-------------------------------------------------

If I give up this point for you, then how could you interpret the following verses:


[i]And I will establish my covenant with you, neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.
And God said, this is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:
I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth. And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud: And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh. And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.[/i](Genesis 9 : 11~16)

I am surprised at what is adduced in these verses! Allah is All-knowing has established a token so as not to forget His covenant with Noah!! Actually, startling matter!!

Patient be and take your time. Upset not by me, please.
I am poor in English and poor creature.

Have a good time
Ayed

Edited April 24, 2005 by ayed

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='ayed' date='Apr 24 2005, 04:05 PM'] "Where are you" does prove inconsistency of your books. [/quote]
No, it doesn't. As I pointed out, sometimes we ask questions even when we know the answers, for the sake of the person we are asking.

[quote]I am surprised at what is adduced in these verses! Allah is All-knowing has established a token so as not to forget His covenant with Noah!! Actually, startling matter!![/quote]

1. When we remember something, it is being drawn from our unconscious thought to our conscious thought. Just because we aren't thinking about something does not mean that we don't know it.

2. Figurative speak is allowed. It is not uncommon for God to speak in human terms, so that we can understand.