Who Is All-knowing ?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Apr 22 2005, 04:57 PM'] There is a difference between the spoken and written word. I am much more of an orator than a man of letters. [/quote]
You are quite the speaker. Very emphatic.

[Cathurian]

I don't mean to drag this off-topic, but I can't PM him and I'm curious...

Ayed, I was wondering if you also post on the Word Reference forums? There is someone called ayed who posts there, and I thought you might be the same person.

If so, we post on two of the same forums. Hahaha.

[ayed]

[quote name='Cathurian' date='Apr 24 2005, 08:14 PM'] I don't mean to drag this off-topic, but I can't PM him and I'm curious...

Ayed, I was wondering if you also post on the Word Reference forums? There is someone called ayed who posts there, and I thought you might be the same person.

If so, we post on two of the same forums. Hahaha. [/quote]
Yes, how smart you are!

[ayed]

[quote]Paphnutius :
I do not think that it shows that God is not omniscient. I have always read that as God calling Adam to be responsible for his actions. It is not that God was unaware of where Adam was hiding, but rather that God called Adam out of hiding to enact justice and at the same time mercy. It does not say that God was unaware of where Adam was, that is something that you are reading into it implicitly. I may know that someone is hiding behind a door, and I may call for that person to expose himself saying "Where are you?” that, however, does not mean that I was unaware of where he was. I think there is more behind it to God not seeing where Adam was[/quote]

First, Allah is indisputably All-knowing. Think not that I am ignorant of Allah’s traits, our Creator.

Second, how did you know what you have interpreted above is the eye of trueness? Are you a contemporary to the biblical scribes when they compiled this book?

Third, forget not that your holy books have been always undergone, distortions, insertions and amendments. Thus; you have many various biblical editions such as KJV and the like.

"Where are you" does prove inconsistency of your books.

-------------------------------------------------

If I give up this point for you, then how could you interpret the following verses:


[i]And I will establish my covenant with you, neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.
And God said, this is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:
I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth. And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud: And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh. And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.[/i](Genesis 9 : 11~16)

I am surprised at what is adduced in these verses! Allah is All-knowing has established a token so as not to forget His covenant with Noah!! Actually, startling matter!!

Patient be and take your time. Upset not by me, please.
I am poor in English and poor creature.

Have a good time
Ayed

Edited April 24, 2005 by ayed

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='ayed' date='Apr 24 2005, 04:05 PM'] "Where are you" does prove inconsistency of your books. [/quote]
No, it doesn't. As I pointed out, sometimes we ask questions even when we know the answers, for the sake of the person we are asking.

[quote]I am surprised at what is adduced in these verses! Allah is All-knowing has established a token so as not to forget His covenant with Noah!! Actually, startling matter!![/quote]

1. When we remember something, it is being drawn from our unconscious thought to our conscious thought. Just because we aren't thinking about something does not mean that we don't know it.

2. Figurative speak is allowed. It is not uncommon for God to speak in human terms, so that we can understand.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='ayed' date='Apr 24 2005, 03:05 PM']
First, Allah is indisputably All-knowing. Think not that I am ignorant of Allah’s traits, our Creator.

[/quote]
Sorry, did not mean to imply that.

[quote]
Second, how did you know what you have interpreted above is the eye of trueness? Are you a contemporary to the biblical scribes when they compiled this book?
[/quote]

I even said that I was not a biblical scholar. However, I believe that may a legitamte interpretation for it is coherent with the rest of the Scriptures as I evidenced by that Psalm. You are pointing to one passage and trying to a make a point that it is not coherent, I have shown otherwise. One does not have to a contemporary with the authrs so long as one is able to see the coherence of truth that is revealed in them.

[quote]Third, forget not that your holy books have been always undergone, distortions, insertions and amendments. Thus; you have many various biblical editions such as KJV and the like.
[/quote]

Not to be rude, but we are Catholic and not Protestant, meaning we do not like the KJV anymore than you do. Our scholars are constantly working on getting back to the original manuscripts and what not. Our standard for this is the (new) Latin Vulgate. I do not see your point with this. Correct me if I am wrong, but do we not share many of the Old Testament Scriptures with you? Anyway, as I mentioned above, we do have a standard that has authority over the others.

[quote]"Where are you" does prove inconsistency of your books.[/quote]

I disagree as I said in my first post. You are adding conjecture into to make it incoherent with the rest of Scripture. I have shown that it is coherent. As has Raphael.

[quote]I am surprised at what is adduced in these verses! Allah is All-knowing has established a token so as not to forget His covenant with Noah!! Actually, startling matter!!
[/quote]

Actually not all that starling. I can remember the beauty of a rose without having it front of me. I may recall what a rose looks like, smells like, and feels like without having one. That being said, is the rose not so much more beautiful in person? Would I rather not have a rose infront of me to remind me of that beauty instead of merely thinking about it?

God could not forget His covenant for He is all knowing, but instead He chooses to have the beauty of the rainbow to reflect that covenant. To have the splendor of the bow in the sky to call to mind just how precious that covenant is. It is not that God would forget His covenenat, anymore than I can forget what a rose smells like. It is simply that to have that infront of you calls to mind the beauty even more so than in person.

God cannot and will not forget for He is omniscient. He simply chose to have the rainbow to make the memory so much more beautiful than an image in a mind.

[quote]Patient be and take your time. Upset not by me, please.
I am poor in English and poor creature.
[/quote]

No one is upset here. Take your time as well and your English is far better than some others I have seen.

Edited April 24, 2005 by Paphnutius

[Paphnutius]

Darn Raphael beat me to it again!

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Apr 24 2005, 04:35 PM'] Darn Raphael beat me to it again! [/quote]
You can call me by my real name. They know my full name here. *shrugs*

[Mateo el Feo]

Hello Ayed,

I appreciate your honoring my request to unveil your real argument. That was very kind. Thank you!

Though others have already answered many of your questions, I'd like to add a little bit to the discussion.

It seems reasonable that a seeker of Truth would be un-biased in his critique of the Holy Bible. For me, seeing whether a Muslim believer applies the same questions to the Quran would demonstrate a level of objectivity.

For example, we begin with the Genesis quote:
[quote name='Gen 3:9']And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?[/quote]
If we interpret this to mean that the LORD God did not know the answer to the question (presumably with the intent to prove the corruption of the Old Testament), what would happen if we took the same criticism and applied it to the Quran:
[quote name='Quran 5.116']And when Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah he will say: Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it; Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I do not know what is in Thy mind, surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen things. [/quote]
In this quote, what Allah "says" is actually a question, waiting for an answer. Allah asks, "Did you say to men, 'Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah'?" If the reader believes this question to express ignorance on the part of Allah, this is contradicted by the later part of the verse ("Thou knowest what is in my mind.").

In the same way, if the reader believes Genesis 3:9 to express ignorance on the part of the LORD God, this interpretation is contradicted throughout the Holy Bible (including Genesis), which speaks of God knowing all things--even the thoughts of men.

The objective reader cannot judge Genesis 3:9 as "corrupted" unless he condemns the Quran (5.116) for the same error.

[b]Other questions of omniscience from the same verse[/b]

To go a bit further, one might question why the author of the Quran--who is apparently condemning Christian belief--seems to be ignorant of the basic beliefs of Christianity. For two thousand years, it has been a heresy to believe that Mary was "another god." The Christian Creed has never even taught that Jesus Christ was a separate god. He is "one in being with the Father," as stated by the Nicene Creed, which predates the Quran by hundreds of years.

The Muslim apologist may say that some local Arabian quasi-Christian sect held such beliefs; but then, why would a divine author's knowledge be restricted by geography? Why would a divine author condemn a small heretical Christian sect, while ignoring the long-held beliefs of Christianity, if all of traditional Christianity were in error?

On a similar subject, I would ask why a divine author would claim that Jews believed Ezra (Uzair) to be the Son of God (Surah 9.30), when no such claim had ever been made. In fact, a Jew who believed such a claim would most certainly be expelled from his own community. It was for this reason that Our Lord, Jesus Christ, was crucified (e.g. see [url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/john/john5.htm#v18"]John 5:18 link[/url]).

In this example, the Muslim apologist might believe that this statement refers to some historically forgotten sect of Jews in Yemen, but more questions pop up:
1) Why was a divine author's view of Judaism restricted geographically to a quasi-Jewish sect in Yemen that held beliefs contrary to orthodox Jewish beliefs?
2) Why did the Quran's author say "the Jews" instead of "some Jews," if the author intended to condemn only a small portion of those who call themselves Jews?

Conclusion: Even if we abandon the theory that a question asked by God/Allah disproves His Omniscience or proves textual corruption, we still remain with a number of questions with regard to omniscience of the author of the Quran.

[quote name='ayed']Third, forget not that your holy books have been always undergone, distortions, insertions and amendments. Thus; you have many various biblical editions such as KJV and the like.[/quote]
Though this is a separate topic from this thread, I would like to discuss the issue of the preservation of the Quran and its textual integrity. If you would like to make an assertion that it has been perfectly preserved, I'd like to go into the details into what that assertion entails.

For any of these topics, feel free to start a new thread, and invite other Muslims who share your level of knowledge and courtesy. I value such debates, when participants work toward mutual respect.

God bless you.

[ayed]

Thank you all for answering my questions right here.Frankly speaking, your responses are helpful and informative.You have really exorted great efforts

thanks