Semalsia Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 Assuming God exists. How could He? If I were to hurt someone, then what does that have to do with God? God is an outsider. Why would He forgiving me matter? He's not the one who got hurt. Only the one who got hurt can forgive, right? Only that forgiveness matters. God can't forgive us, if we hurt others. God could forgive those things that hurt Him. But what could ever hurt God? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paphnutius Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 Every sin against your brother or sister is a sin that "hurts" God as well. I use quotations because you cannot really hurt God as one could hurt a person. A sin of any kind is choosing something other than God. It is choosing the lesser good you could say. When you do that you damage the relationship you have with God, for you should always choose God above all else. So yes, everytime you hurt someone else you are choosing something other than God, therefore damaging your relationship with Him and need His forgiveness. Another main point is that God gave us a law which shall not pass away. With the Jews it was the Law of Moses. With us the Law may be seen as fulfill in Christ. Every transgression we make that hurts another is a transgression against God and His law. Even if you were to hurt no one but yourself, that is still a sin and needs forgiveness because God dwells in you. God by no means is an outsider. He is constantly creating, holding together all existence within Himself. God is everywhere, not nowhere as you seem to be caliming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Semalsia Posted April 24, 2005 Author Share Posted April 24, 2005 [quote name='paphnutius']Every sin against your brother or sister is a sin that "hurts" God as well.[/quote] Ok, but even so God's forgiveness is not enough. God can only forgive the hurting that has been done to Him, but not the hurting that has been done to others. Therefore you still need forgiveness from them to be forgiven. Since, I hope you are not saying that hurting others is irrelevant and only hurting God matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noel's angel Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 (edited) ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,you did it to me.’ Everything you do to someone, or everything you don't do for someone, it is the same with God. By hurting your brothers and sisters you are hurting God, therefore, God's forgiveness is neccessary Edited April 24, 2005 by Noel's angel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paphnutius Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 [quote name='Semalsia' date='Apr 24 2005, 02:58 PM'] [quote name='paphnutius']Every sin against your brother or sister is a sin that "hurts" God as well.[/quote] Ok, but even so God's forgiveness is not enough. God can only forgive the hurting that has been done to Him, but not the hurting that has been done to others. Therefore you still need forgiveness from them to be forgiven. Since, I hope you are not saying that hurting others is irrelevant and only hurting God matters. [/quote] That is why often in confession the penance is ordered to some reconcilliation between the others harmed. Sin is communal, it harms your relationship with God, you, and the Church as a whole which includes the individual(s) hamred. You are to seek forgiveness from all and this is done through the sacrament of Reconcilliation. You need ther other person's forgiveness so far as to heal the rift and harm that you have created. That is important. However, God's forgiveness and mercy is what counts for salvation. The trick is, if you are truly repentant to God for your transgressions you will almost always wish to seek forgiveness from the other as well. They can almost not be seperated. When you seek to heal the gap placed between you and God by the sin, you also usually seek the heal the gap or harm done to the other as well. That is the nature of reconcilliation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catalyst Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 its because hurting your brothers and sisters is a sin. Sin is a term taken from archery meaning missing the mark. When you punch someone your not loving your neighbor as God asks us too. In turn you missing the mark of righteousness that God calls us to daily. You need to ask forgiveness because your actions hurt another, but also you need to ask God for forgiveness because you CHOSE to sin and seperated yourself from God. Theres nothing worse than being away from someone who loves you so much they would die for you. The worst thing about hell isn't the flames, its the truth you will forever be separated from Him. Asking for forgiveness is pointless, He doesn't ask us to just ask for forgiveness, he asks us to repent of sin, which means turn away from sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noel's angel Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 If we mere humans can forgive eachother, I can't see why it would be a problem for God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catalyst Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 pennance is not needed, thats why Jesus died on the cross. Doing a good deed or carrying a rock up a hill for what?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 [quote name='Catalyst' date='Apr 24 2005, 04:26 PM'] pennance is not needed, thats why Jesus died on the cross. Doing a good deed or carrying a rock up a hill for what?? [/quote] When we sin and go to Confession, we still feel some attachment to our sins. We still feel inclined to sin. The sin is forgiven, but the damage done to our nature remains, and we must do penance in order to fix it. This is also why purgatory is necessary. When I go to Confession, I still have a desire to sin and the effects of that sin still remain, except the effects on the state of grace in my soul. Penance is to repair that in myself and with others who may have been harmed by my sins. Let's say you've got a little boy who breaks his mother's vase. His mom forgives him, but the vase is still broken and it's still his responsibility to clean up the mess and to make an effort to correct his behavior so that he doesn't break a vase again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noel's angel Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 [quote]1320. Why is the virtue of penance necessary? The virtue of penance is necessary for a sinner to be reconciled with God. If we expect his forgiveness, we must repent. Penance is also necessary because we must expiate and make reparation for the punishment which is due for our sins. That is why Christ tells us, “Unless you repent you will all perish” (Luke 13:5).[/quote] CCC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catalyst Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 the bible say after death comes judgement. Let your life be a testimony not a simple action later. The condemnation you have after you ask God for forgiveness not some preist, is not of God. REBUKE IT!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noel's angel Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 i can't quite understand your post, could you make it more clear please (maybe im just being dumb lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paphnutius Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 [quote name='Catalyst' date='Apr 24 2005, 03:35 PM'] the bible say after death comes judgement. Let your life be a testimony not a simple action later. The condemnation you have after you ask God for forgiveness not some preist, is not of God. REBUKE IT!!! [/quote] We do not disagree with our life being a testimony nor about asking for God's forgiveness. We appear to disagree with the priest standing in persona Christi during confession however. Please do not yell either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 [quote name='Catalyst' date='Apr 24 2005, 04:35 PM'] the bible say after death comes judgement. Let your life be a testimony not a simple action later. The condemnation you have after you ask God for forgiveness not some preist, is not of God. REBUKE IT!!! [/quote] I think he's saying that if you feel guilty, rebuke the guilt. The point is not to ignore guilt, it's to confront it. And temporal punishment is not the same as guilt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noel's angel Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 it's not about feeling guilty though, surely it is the fact that you sinned against your brother or sister and against God that is the problem, not whether you feel guilty about it or not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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