Thy Geekdom Come Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 [quote name='Noel's angel' date='Apr 24 2005, 04:50 PM'] it's not about feeling guilty though, surely it is the fact that you sinned against your brother or sister and against God that is the problem, not whether you feel guilty about it or not [/quote] Yep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catalyst Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 nah, your not being dumb, what i said after I read the post was a jumbled mash of words lol. Thank yous go out to those who understood. regarding that stuff taken from the catechism, repentance has nothing to with penance, repentantance has everything to do with not doing that sin again. It may happen again but thats because that sin may have a stronghold in your life. Die to yourself and ressurect in Christ, let that be your pennance. Unless you are born again you will not see the kingdom of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paphnutius Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 There are three things that need to happen after a sin since sin is communal as explained earlier: Forgiveness for the transaction. Repentatnce to abandon sin. Penance to heal the transgression and set things right. When you sin you need to take into account what sin does. It ruptures relationships on all scales. Penance is help heal those ruptures, to set relationships right. So yes it does have to do with repentance in the fact that we abandon our sins by turning to attempt heal the damage done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catalyst Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 no penance does not heal. Only by Christs stripes we are healed. Christ did so much!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Semalsia Posted April 24, 2005 Author Share Posted April 24, 2005 So we can agree that God can't forgive on behalf of other people? So there are deeds God can't forgive us for. Also, who is getting hurt from me not being a catholic? [quote name='Catalyst']you CHOSE to sin and seperated yourself from God.[/quote] Alright, I wish to separate myself from God. Why do I have to suffer for it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paphnutius Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 (edited) Ok let us look at the parable of the prodigal son shall we: The son sinned by squandering his father's inheritance correct? Sin of pride, self, greed, etc...That exact sin is not important. What is important is the actions the son takes after he realizes he needs to return home. Repentance: The son realizes he needs to repent and abandons the life he is living (feeding swine etc...) to go home. That is repentance, abandoning the way of sin that one is living in. Forgiveness: The son when he gets home asks for his father's forgiveness and places himself at his father's mercy asking to become a servant of the house. Penance: This parable does show penance is needed. For the son after travelling so far away from the Father had to come back to the Father. The son had to make the journey back Home. That journey is the penance. The going back and setting things straight, in this case it was making the journey back home. That was his penance. His conversion started with repentance of the way he was living, then penance back to his house, then asked for forgiveness. Not an exact detail of the process, but we can see all three aspects covered. I think we are all also glossing over the fact that penance is also to re-establish habits that are proper to being a disciple of Christ. Edited April 24, 2005 by Paphnutius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paphnutius Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 [quote name='Semalsia' date='Apr 24 2005, 04:37 PM'] So we can agree that God can't forgive on behalf of other people? So there are deeds God can't forgive us for. [/quote] No. God can forgive on the behalf of others, for ultimately all sins are sins against the Father. Are we not all His children, His servants? Can the master not forgive someone on the behalf of His servant? [quote]Alright, I wish to separate myself from God. Why do I have to suffer for it?[/quote] Because God is eternal life. God is calling you to Him and you are rejecting all that He has to offer you. It comes down that you cannot be happy apart from God in the long run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catalyst Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 (edited) his journey home is his penance? no its not. Setting things straight is setting things straight. Its called honour, and integrity and above all else, humilty. Asking those you hurt for forgiveness is as important as asking god because in the bible it says that if you fail to forgive to another you won't see God. Its a pride issue on our own part. Catalyst's revised version there, I hope you understand. Edited April 24, 2005 by Catalyst Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paphnutius Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 [quote name='Catalyst' date='Apr 24 2005, 04:50 PM'] his journey home is his penance? no its not. Its a pride issue on our own part. [/quote] Simply saying not it isnt does not make you right. I have shown how the travel back home is setting things straight. It was a physical action that had to be performed to be reconciled with his Father. [quote]Setting things straight is setting things straight. Its called honour, and integrity and above all else, humilty.[/quote] Yes and that is part of penance. [quote] Asking those you hurt for forgiveness is as important as asking god because in the bible it says that if you fail to forgive to another you won't see God.[/quote] Yes and that is because penance is necessary. Asking someone's forgiveness is often part of penance. You seem to accept doing penance except you just refuse to call it that and do not seem to want accept our saying it is needed. [quote]Catalyst's revised version there, I hope you understand.[/quote] Not at all. We are all paraphrasing here anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomProddy Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 Hey catalyst. You ask: "Can God forgive our sins?". The first thing we have to settle on is a definition of what "sin" is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Semalsia Posted April 24, 2005 Author Share Posted April 24, 2005 [quote name='paphnutius']Can the master not forgive someone on the behalf of His servant?[/quote] No, because it means nothing. Person A has hurt B. C forgives A on behalf of B. Meanwhile B is still hurt and A still feels bad about it. If a servant gets raped and the master forgives the rapist, then what? How was this fair to the servant? Murder is unforgivable, since there won't be anyone to forgive you. [quote]It comes down that you cannot be happy apart from God in the long run.[/quote] What if I want to live in misery? Can't I just be apart from God? Why do I have suffer Hell too (if being apart from God is [b]already[/b] such a pain)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomProddy Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 [quote name='Semalsia' date='Apr 25 2005, 12:22 AM'] What if I want to live in misery? Can't I just be apart from God? Why do I have suffer Hell too (if being apart from God is [b]already[/b] such a pain)? [/quote] Hell is eternal death in our rejection of God, which is in essense what you are thinking of .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 [quote name='Semalsia' date='Apr 24 2005, 05:22 PM'] What if I want to live in misery? Can't I just be apart from God? Why do I have suffer Hell too (if being apart from God is [b]already[/b] such a pain)? [/quote] you would be making a choice (in which god gave you) to live in misery. What i have a problem with is this........a kid who throughout his/her childhood is frequently molested and recognizes the pain or suffering involved......how does god expect this kid to see goodness in life at all? Keep in mind this is not pain by choice, but pain by surrounding evils of the world. Its not the kids fault, and if the kid grows up disbelieving in god i cant blame him/her. Some people have easier roads in life than others........how can the same stipulations (gods perspective) apply to everyone? And if they do.......this severly makes me angry at god (creates doubt). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paphnutius Posted April 25, 2005 Share Posted April 25, 2005 [quote name='Semalsia' date='Apr 24 2005, 05:22 PM'] No, because it means nothing. Person A has hurt B. C forgives A on behalf of B. Meanwhile B is still hurt and A still feels bad about it. [/quote] It does mean something considering that it is God who judges. [quote]Murder is unforgivable, since there won't be anyone to forgive you. [/quote] There is no sin that is unforgivable except for blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Murder is forgiveable through God. Until you develop your understanding of God and what the fuller picture is about working on this point isnt going to get to far. [quote]If a servant gets raped and the master forgives the rapist, then what? How was this fair to the servant? [/quote] Because in this sense all sin is ultimately against the master. Mind you what was said earlier. The person typically will not ask forgiveness from the master without either before or after seek forgiveness from those others hurt. If one truly wishes to be reconciled to the master they will also wish to be reconciled to those hurt. [quote]What if I want to live in misery? Can't I just be apart from God? Why do I have suffer Hell too (if being apart from God is already such a pain)? [/quote] The answer to this has already been stated. Hell is the total seperation from God. Like it or not God is active in your life right now. Hell is total seperation from that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catalyst Posted April 25, 2005 Share Posted April 25, 2005 I never asked that question..sin is simply missing the mark of righteousness God has called us too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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