Rom 8:30

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Briguy' date='May 9 2005, 08:01 AM'] Hi Thess. I thought that your question was just to make a point, not to be answered. I answer F.  OK, I know you didn't have an "F" but I needed my own answer which would be, "Why is my pastor quoting parts of verses with no context, He must have a pre-dertermined agenda he is trying to prove"  I would say something like that. Thess. I have said over and over that most people from every denomination want to post 1 verse at a time or maybe 2 and think it proves their point. I have taken every verse given me by others on what they say is losing salvation and offered another resonable, usually better interpretation based on context, history, logic, etc...  On the other side when I present scripture on the OSAS side it usually meets with a counter of other verses and not a direct interpretation of the verse. Tell me which of the partial verses above you would like me to explain and I will do so. I may then give you some verses to explain as well.

Guardsman, The thing we must dertermine is when "eternal life" begins. We must turn to scripture for that answer. Eternal has to be forever or it is not eternal, right? I will make sure we agree on that before I go on. Thanks again for the nice discussion.

In Christ,
Brian [/quote]
Brian,

I don't see a contextual problem in the passage about denying Christ. It is exactly as I have spoken. Jesus is talking about how God cares for us. Thus if we do deny him before men, not recongizing his providence in our lives, he will deny us. Peter at the time of his denials had rejected Christ and his saving plan. He no longer had faith in it or he would not have denied him.

By the way, better is in the eye's of the beholder. We all, even you brian color our reading of scripture with "traditions" that have been taught to us. We as Catholics recognize and admit this. I doudt I will get you to do the same.

As for predetermined agendas, I've run in to alot of that regarding OSAS dogma. You answer was not completely unexpected.

Having said that Brian, I am fine. Seems you are doing well and I am thankful for that. I do hope someday we will be able to get off this merry-go-round if you know what I mean.

Peace.

Edited May 9, 2005 by thessalonian

[Briguy]

Hey Thess. Sometimes I think the Merry-go-round is the reason we keep searching and growing and finding answers. It is a challange to discuss these issues with the folks here because they, you included, have a lot of knowledge and wisdom. You know that I am not among the Christian crowd who thinks that Catholics are not Christians. I believe that any person who has placed their trust, through faith, in Christ is saved regardless where they worship and fellowship. Certainly there are church goers in every church building who are not Christians, I think that is across the board. Certain denominations may have higher percentages but only God knows that for sure.

Thess., here is the problem I see with the verses from Matthew we have discussed. At what point does Jesus deny us before the father. If we deny Him just before death? What if like Peter we deny just for a few hours. Are you saying at the point of denial we lose salvation but at the point of re-faith we gain it back? That sounds like a salvation yo-yo for a new or weaker Christian, which Paul says there are. Can you really see God like that Thess.? - tossing around salvation like a beach ball at a concert? No, these verses could have a couple explanations but losing salvation is not the lesson or intended meaning.

In Christ,
Brian

[Brother Adam]

This is a problem only for fundamentalists because they see the whole compass of salvation simply in a single prayer, whereas the Bible, over and over again, disagrees with them. But as Thess said, if you compartmentalize verses, you can make anything happen in the scriptures. Mormons love the scriptures!

Everything about OSAS denies both free will and the New Covenant. It is determinalistic. The fear that salvation hangs in the balance of a persons every move is false, but I can understand why you would think that when you deny adopted sonship through baptism.

To you salvation is simple "I said a prayer (believed in Jesus), therefore I am going to go to heaven". Salvation indeed is different then this. Salvation is a covenant that changes God's family tree. Initial salvation frees us from original sin and opens us to grace and life (Rom 8:24; Eph 2:5,8; 2 tim 1:9), We then continue to fight sin in our lives, we have not been completely liberated from sin (salvation) as believers and still have free will. While we are adopted sons, God is not a tyrrant, we can still freely choose to become the prodigal son. The story of the prodigal son only makes sense when you consider that he was the fathers son, before our initial salvation we are not the fathers son. (Phil 2:12, 1 Pet 1:9). Then at the end of our earthly life if we are adopted as children of God, and if we die in a state grace (Mt 10:22; Mt 24:13; Mk 8:25, Acts 15:11, Rom 5:9-10, 13:11, 1 Cor 3:15, 5:5, Heb 9:28).

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Briguy' date='May 10 2005, 07:38 AM'] Hey Thess. Sometimes I think the Merry-go-round is the reason we keep searching and growing and finding answers. It is a challange to discuss these issues with the folks here because they, you included, have a lot of knowledge and wisdom. You know that I am not among the Christian crowd who thinks that Catholics are not Christians. I believe that any person who has placed their trust, through faith, in Christ is saved regardless where they worship and fellowship. Certainly there are church goers in every church building who are not Christians, I think that is across the board. Certain denominations may have higher percentages but only God knows that for sure.

Thess., here is the problem I see with the verses from Matthew we have discussed. At what point does Jesus deny us before the father. If we deny Him just before death? What if like Peter we deny just for a few hours. Are you saying at the point of denial we lose salvation but at the point of re-faith we gain it back? That sounds like a salvation yo-yo for a new or weaker Christian, which Paul says there are. Can you really see God like that Thess.? - tossing around salvation like a beach ball at a concert? No, these verses could have a couple explanations but losing salvation is not the lesson or intended meaning.

In Christ,
Brian [/quote]
Brian,

I don't believe I ever said Peter lost his salvation. If I did show me. I said he fell from grace. Those who fall from grace can be restored to it by grace. It's not a yo-yo at all. I only see one place in scripture where Peter "fell from grace". Is that he only time in his life that he "fell from grace". I don't know. But salvation is a walk rather than a talk. We must continue down the path of salvation and a denial of Christ is a denial that we are on that path and thus must be restored. Peter most certainly was not among the lost. Yet I suspect that by that campfire if you had held out a pamphlet saying "Are you saved" he would have spat on it and thrown it in the mud. Fortunately the gaze of Christ turned his way and peared in to his heart, exposing his sin or he would have quite possibly followed the path of Judas. God is merciful to whom he chooses to be merciful to. Thank God for the grace of repentence.

Blessings

[cmotherofpirl]

St Paul likens it to running a race, you get to the end when you die.
OSAS says the starting point IS the finish line of the race.
Saying a few words does not guarantee salvation.
Even demons can quote scripture.

Bptism justifys us, a journey of sanctification can lead us to salvation.


Nobody is assured salvation until we actually meet St Pete at the gate and he lets us in.

[thessalonian]

I should note as well Brian that a part of your reasoning that our system would be like a yo-yo is your lack of understanding of mortal and venial sin which are quite biblical and your lack of understanding of the sacraments and their effect on sin. i.e. the Eucharist forgives venial sin and helps us gaurd against serious sin. From the protestant perspective of stealing a cookie being equal to robbing a bank, I can see where you might think we are always going in and out of grace. It is not however a logical or biblical perspective.

Blessings

Edited May 10, 2005 by thessalonian

[Briguy]

Hi thess. I guess I jumped the gun and made an assupmtion. Please explain to me what "fell from grace" means and what happens when you die in that "fell from grace" status. Say, for example, after denying Christ the third time Peter got run over by a Chariot and died. What would happen to his soul?

MOP, I do not agree that OSAS says that the starting line is the finish of the race. The starting line or the point of salvation is when one enters the race or in another of Paul's examples when you begin "the fight". In boxing there is no match until you enter the ring. Once in the ring the fight ensues. The fight that is between old nature and new nature. Anyway you can't run a race or fight a fight that you have not started. The point is that Jesus says believe is to have eternal life, therfore logic would dictate that that is when the race or fight begins AND that eternal can only mena forever and so the eternal life that begins with the onset of the race/fight continues forever. You must understand that it is not winning that is the goal in Paul's examples it is to pun with perseverence, meaning to keep going even when things are tough, even if you fail and sin, to keep going. We fight the good fight, we don't win the good fight. Paul encouages us to keep up the effort. Paul knew that there was ultimate victory in Jesus. Why would he possible say that he was torn whether to be in Heaven now or continue the fight on earth. Would he say that for a second if there was any chance he could lose his salvation?? Think about that very carefully. Would Paul risk his salvation? No, he would not. He knew he was saved forever, bought with the price of Christ's blood and sealed forver, therefore to stay on the earth was OK because he felt he had work to do and knew 100% that he was bound for Heaven no matter what.

Also, on Baptism, I have said this over and over with little response (maybe not on the board) that millions of people have been baptized as infants and it has no effect on them throughout their life. They never hardly give God a thought for the next 70 years or so after their baptism. How could the act have so much power and make so little difference to millions throughout history. No, MOP, Baptism does not justify us, faith is what "proves" rightousness, not an act, no matter the good will that is intended in the act. Infant Baptism is fine as a promise of faithful aprenting but has nothing to do with justification. That is what the Bible argues anyway. Think of Abraham and Paul's example of Abraham in Romans.

more later,
In Christ,
Brian

[thessalonian]

[quote]Hi thess. I guess I jumped the gun and made an assupmtion. Please explain to me what "fell from grace" means and what happens when you die in that "fell from grace" status. Say, for example, after denying Christ the third time Peter got run over by a Chariot and died. What would happen to his soul?[/quote]

Oh, if he in fact willfully denied Christ, and it sure looks like he did, at that if he died moment he would have entered the eternal lake of fire. But salvation, being a process and God being a God of second chances who forgives anything if we turn to him, Peter was allowed the opportunity by his mercy to return to a life of faith and trust by God's grace.

The difference in your and my thinking is that you equate salvation with being saved (which is our state of grace). We however link them but they are not equivalent. Salvation is the persevernce in the state of grace until death. It is a process, started out be a fully justifying and sanctifying event called baptism.

Hope that helps.

[thessalonian]

[quote]Also, on Baptism, I have said this over and over with little response (maybe not on the board) that millions of people have been baptized as infants and it has no effect on them throughout their life. They never hardly give God a thought for the next 70 years or so after their baptism[/quote]

Lotsa hand waving going on here. Do you have statistics on what people think and don't think? I have seen conversions by people who had little upbringing in the faith, yet were always keenly aware of the fact that they were baptized. Further your statistics mean alot to you because you hold to a doctrine that says Once Saved Always Saved. i.e. they were baptized, they are in if what we say about baptism is true. While we believe that upbringing has alot to do with protecting children against the world that strives to stip them of their faith. Otherwise Psalm 78 means nothing. Faith must be nutured and it must grow. It is not an on off switch but a potentiometer, i.e. it can be brightened and dimmed. The Apostles had faith, yet Jesus said "if you had the faith of a mustard seed you could move a mountain". Their faith needed to grow. That a large share of those baptized as infants don't retain the faith is not proof of anything except that "the devil prowls about like a lion seeking the ruin of souls".

Blessings

Edited May 11, 2005 by thessalonian

[Briguy]

MOP,
Here are some verses that explain why I believe eternal life starts at the moment one has saving faith. The very moment they are washed clean by the blood of Jesus.

John 10
[25] Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
[26] But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
[27] My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
[28] And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
[29] My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
[30] I and my Father are one.

John 17
[1] These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
[2] As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
[3] And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
[4] I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
[5] And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

1 John 5
[9] If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
[10] He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
[11] And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
[12] He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
[13] These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.


Thess., I agree that upbringing has very much to do with it. That is the point. As Christians we are to raise our children in the ways of the Lord. The act of baptism means very little compared to Christian upbringing. Lets say that we have two children. One is not Baptized as an infant but has parents that attend church, teach the child about Jesus, how to pray etc... The other child is baptized as an infant but has parents that just attend church on holidays and special events. They don't prat at meals or read the bible at all. Which child will most likely live a life that is pleasing to God, i.e. come to a place of saving faith and service to God.
I realize how obvious this is. The point is clear. In real life Baptism does little, infants or in adults. Placing ones trust in the blood of Christ is what saves. Baptism as a parents commitment or as an outward sign of Faith do not save, they are good, don't get me wrong, but they do not save. Baptism has less significance today then it did in the early church. I will let you respond before I continue.

In Christ,
Brian

[thessalonian]

Brian,

Once again your applying your framework of beliefs with OSAS as a superseeding dogma to me and painting a picture of how things are that I do not agree with. The problem with your analysis is that I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT BAPTISM IS THE END. I believe that grace is needed every step of the way and that baptism is the step that makes us a new creation. But it does not gaurantee salvation. And yes at some point when the age of reason is attained faith must begin to kick in. You compare on who is baptized and instructed to one who is not and say that because the one is at a lesser level and less likely to persevere that baptism isn't very important. You give me no solid statistics and leave out an important category of those who have not been baptized or instructed. I will be if you put the group of baptized and not instructed against those who recieved nothing up to the age of 19 you would find a greater percentage of those who were baptized coming to faith later. I have faith that this is true. Just like you have faith that even though you cannot be infallibly certain that OSAS is true because you can't be 100% sure your biblical exegesis is correct, still you say you are assured of salvation. (even though 95% sure that your 100% assured of salvation is not 100% assured of salvation.). So I do not believe the conclusions you have drawn are as obvious as you think they are. Of course neither of us has solid statistics to back up what we say. I have some anecdotal evidence of some friends I know who were baptized but then not brought up with any teachings feeling a strong draw to the Church later in their teens. But in general I believe on faith that baptism has a real effect on people's souls. And of course you have an issue with two different means of salvation, one for adults and one for children in your system.


Blessings

[thessalonian]

Brian,

Another thought and some more hand waving. Let's take 100 kids in Christian homes, being raised in the faith, and get them to the age of reason where they declare Jesus Christ Personal Lord and savior. Now 50 of their fathers at this point loose their jobs, start drinking, turn mean and start living a prodigal life. (My understanding is you think they are still saved). Further he starts talking negatively about God in the house and denys Jesus in the manner that Peter did (they're still saved according to you, they just deny that they know Jesus). The whole family stops going to Church and there is no more religous education for the children. Now 10 years down the road (by the way how long can one deny Jesus) if you looked at each group of fifty kids, which group do you think you would find a greater percentage proclaiming a faith in Christ. I bet that it would be a big difference. I think this scenario is just as valid as your baptism senario.

Blessings

[Briguy]

Thess. Lets start with your last post. I think I agree with you if I am reading right this early morning. Yes, the group with the fathers who are stronger Christians would more likely be stronger Christians. They would have had a strong example to follow and so a higher percentage would be stronger in the faith. I absolutely believe that the fathers that fail would still be saved. Thess. It is Satan's desire that he drag us down. Why would we be surprized when he actually drags people down, even to a point where they struggle with what they believe. Jesus, however is strong when we are weak. He holds us tight because His faith and His grip are PERFECT, even when our faith is weak. We do not retain our salvation by our own accord. If we did then you would be right but thank God it is by His power and His might that we retain the salvation that was paid for by the very blood of God's son.

Now, your first post. If in Baptism a person is made a new creation if should have an impact for everyone who is made new. It not only has no impact on many it has had no impact on millions. Just about everyone I know was baptized as a baby. That is popular here in the midwest. Very few had anything to do with God growing up and many do not now. I spent many years drinking and swearing, etc... with these folks. I was Baptized in the Lutheran church but I was 29 before I trusted Christ, and really became "NEW". The Bible clearly says that those IN CHRIST are the new creation. Once NEW there will be impact, even if later comes a season of falling away. Now, look at 1 John 5:13 in my post above. It says that I can KNOW that I have eternal life. We know that eternal is forever because it has to be, hence the name eternal. If I can know I have eternal life I can know my salvation is 100% gaurenteed because eternal is forever. If I could lose eternnal life then eternal is not eternal. But eternal is forever in every context used in the Bible so if i can know it i can be 100% assured of it. If that does not sit well you will have to argue with John about it. We will have an eternity to discuss it with John in Heaven.

In Christ our anchor,
Brian

[Brother Adam]

Hi Brian,

You are again compartmentalizing verses.

1 John 3:13

(1) to those who believe in the name of the son of God
(2) [u]may[/u] have eternal life

We have already established biblically that one can at one point have faith in Christ and fall away (Mt 7:21; Mt 24:13; Heb 6:4-6; Gal 5:4, and others).

To address you're contention that logically if we at one point 'have' eternal life that we did not 'have' it if it can be lost. This is almost compartmentalizing logic. It pretty much denies everything we know biblically about a covenant. Christ will never leave us, but of course God cannot be made into a tyrrant, and we cannot be determanilists, so we still have free will and we can still become prodigal sons, points which you did not address yet.

We may know that we have a heavenly inhertance waiting for us and we can any time have the full hope of heaven, but we cannot say we have finished the race until our final salvation, when we enter into eternal life in heaven (Mt 10:22; Mt 24:13; Mk 8:35; Rom 5:9-10; Rom 13:11; Heb 9:28).

[guardsman]

[quote name='Briguy' date='May 9 2005, 08:01 AM']

Guardsman, The thing we must dertermine is when "eternal life" begins. We must turn to scripture for that answer. Eternal has to be forever or it is not eternal, right? I will make sure we agree on that before I go on. Thanks again for the nice discussion.

[/quote]
Good question. Everything in this world will pass away, eventually, so I don't know if the lives we are living currently would be considered part of "eternal life" or not. Maybe our "eternal lives" begin once Jesus gives us our eternal glorified bodies. I guess eternal means forever, and there is nothing eternal in this world, so there is no eternal life in this world, but the next world. So our eternal lives begin once we leave this world. I never really thought about when eternal life begins. Someone feel free to correct me if this is non-Catholic thinking. Just my thoughts.

[thessalonian]

Brian,

I haven't forgotten about this. Your making OSAS a superceeding principal of exegesis when you can't even say with 100% certainty that it is true. It is true only if your exegesis is correct, which you cannot state with 100% certainty. I'll try to give it time later.

[Briguy]

Hi Guardsman,
Thanks for the post. Please keep thinking and pondering when etrenal life starts. You said nothing on earth is eternal. Well, we do know our souls are eternal, they will live on in either Heaven or Hell. The Bible only gives those two options. The Bible is clear that belief in Jesus, a true saving belief, can produce eternal life. Eternal then starts when that belief occurs and eternal is forever with no end. It is a simple concept. Now, on top of that the Bible teaches that there is rejoicing in heaven over a lost one that is found. Could there be rejoicing over one who is found, in the perfectness of heaven if there was a chance that the found one could ultimately be lost again. That would mena there is rejoicing in heaven over ones who end up not in Heaven and that heaven can't be perfect because they mistakenly are rejoicing. That is deep and I will let you think on it.

BA, glad to hear from you. Hope your tests went well. I have decided who you remind me of now, Carson Weber (I think that was his name from the BB). You have compassion for what you believe but lack some charity and paitence towards others. At least that is the feel I get in posting with you. Hopefully, the love of people who disagree with you will come in time. Anyway, We have not established that you can fall away from Christ and I disagreee that the scriptures you cited say any such thing. Here is the Hebrews verse in context.
Hebrews 6
[4] For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[5] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[6] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
[7] For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
[8] But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
[9] But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

Adam, the Hebrews were a different bunch because of there deep ties to Judiasum (sp? - mind blank) They were kind of Jews and kind of gentiles. The concept here that some have seen what is true in Christ, they have felt the power and love and even the calling of the Holy Spirit. If that power does not cause them to convert (trust Christ) then it is hopeless, there is nothing more that could be done, they will be lost forever. To be that close to salvation and then back off, what a horrible thing but true of some Hebrews who could not break the ties of the old ways. Look at the last verse I included. To the saved, the beloved, they are encouaged to show their faith, to show their salvation, which they have obtained. Just a few verses later we see my verse from before that Jesus is the anchor of the soul. Ask yourself Adam, can you fathom a power on earth or from evil that is strong enough to rip Jesus, the anchor from holding on to the souls of His children. To believe you can lose your salvation is to believe that there is a power that would cause the anchoe to come out of the ground and the boat gets destroyed. I believe that Jesus is the anchor that holds because He is perfect in Love and Strength. BTW, that includes me myself trying to force the anchor loose. Sonship is forver, that is why the prodigal started out a son and ended up a son, and always was a son.

In Christian Love,
Brian

[guardsman]

[quote name='Briguy' date='May 16 2005, 08:11 AM'] the Bible teaches that there is rejoicing in heaven over a lost one that is found. Could there be rejoicing over one who is found, in the perfectness of heaven if there was a chance that the found one could ultimately be lost again. [/quote]
The found one was lost in the first place, right? Are you saying that if today I decided to renounce my belief in Jesus and start worshipping Satan, and then ten years from now I come back to the Church, there would not be rejoicing in Heaven? I assure you, this type of scenario has happened. People have left the Church and came back. People have also left the Church and never returned. People do strange things. Souls can be lost, despite your anchor analogy. Even souls that were previously "saved". If this were not true, confession and repentance would not be necessary. Once Saved Always Saved is a great doctrine for making our lives on earth as comfortable as we like it to be. Unfortunately being a Christian has nothing to do with being comfortable. An assurance of salvation, despite anything we do, is the ultimate comfort. If you want assurance of your salvation, become a member of the One True Church, The Universal Church, and bow to her authority. I don't know why protestants are always trying talk Catholics out of their faith.

[Brother Adam]

Brian,

You are still failing to understand the difference between being born again, being saved, between grace, between merit, between faith, between eternal life. OSAS is a doctrine of hell. Why? My brother in law is a drug addict and sex offender, but he is going to heaven because he 'put his trust in Jesus'. To him, that means when he was 8 he said a prayer to 'accept Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior" but his life hasn't changed and he believes organized religion is for 'panzies'. This type of thing is a testament to why the "Sinner's prayer" and OSAS is bunk. As genuine as his prayer may have been when he was 8 years old, like 10's of millions of Baptists who later find out 'they weren't really saved' and have to go to another altar call, they don't understand the importance of works in their life. That while through baptism they may have been born again, they can choose to fall away from the faith, fall into mortal sin. Were they born again in baptism? Sure they were. There is an indelible mark that cannot be removed. Have they chosen to reject their inheritance? Yes.

OSAS truly is a license to live life however you want 1, 10, or 20 years down the road becuase of course, you've already been saved. You may have some 'logic' problems, but through scriptural study and understanding the basic idea of a covenant they can easily be overcome. Where they are, there are graces there all the more, but when they reject their sonship in Christ, they cannot be saved, they have sinned unto death, and unless they go through metonoia (which all of us go through daily) they will go to hell when they die.

By saying, "I am incapable of making a decision to reject Christ" you have become a determinalist and have just told me there is no free will. You may want to rethink that decision. Hebrews 6 indeed does not say "I can't even reject Christ if I so choose, I have no choice, now that I said a prayer, I have to go to heaven".

Jesus speaks to this in Matthew 7:21, Mt 24:13, and let's not forget the story of the sheep and the goats. Why were the goats cast into hell? Was it because they did not believe in Christ? Quite the other hand, they produced bad fruits.

God be with you!

Edited May 17, 2005 by Brother Adam

[Briguy]

Hey Guardsman, I really don't have a problem with you being Catholic, as long as you are a Christian, and bound for Heaven. I only try to talk unbelievers into being believers. You seem like a believer to me. I will address your question later. Take care and please do not let me upset you, I only am trying to argue what I see the Bible teaching us, I mean no harm.

Adam, I still sense a hostility from you. I am begining to think you are arguing with yourself. Your heart may be telling you something different from what you are now studying. Anyway, thats just the social worker in me speaking. There is a reason I annoy you Adam. Please try to figure out what it is. You know my kindness from a couple years of posting here and on the BB. I debate because it is fun to challange and be challanged, it is a growth opportunity. I thank you for the depth of your posts they have been a challange.
I do not like the "sinner's prayer". People that use that term to me have a misunderstanding of being saved. If saying words could save then we should trick people into saying the words. I believe baptism is simular. If it could really mark people with a seal then why not sprinke everyone from a airplane? You see it is not words from the head that saves, it is words from the heart. Who confesses from the heart? "The elect" that is what the Bible says. The Bible says and I will post the verse later drom Acts that those who believed were those whom God ordained to believe. How it fits together with free will is difficult but I refuse to deny what the Bible says in lieu of what other verses seem to say or because of a feeling or because someone else says I should believe. I will continue to ponder, pray, read and grow in knowledge of the Lord. I do not like to be lumped in with and denomination because then you think I believe in things like a sinners prayer. I go to a Christmas program at an Assembly of God church every year. They have a great program but then ruin it in the end by leading everyone in a sinner's prayer, even telling the saved to say it again to make others more comfortable. That is not heart salvation for most that would be some head confession. Anyway, Paul clearly taught in Romans that we should not sin just because we are covered in Grace. OSAS is a license to live and rejoice and not a open door to sin. Remember God chatises those he loves. He will get the prodigals attention, that is certain.

In Christian Love,
Brian