Rom 8:30

[thessalonian]

Brian,

Once again your applying your framework of beliefs with OSAS as a superseeding dogma to me and painting a picture of how things are that I do not agree with. The problem with your analysis is that I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT BAPTISM IS THE END. I believe that grace is needed every step of the way and that baptism is the step that makes us a new creation. But it does not gaurantee salvation. And yes at some point when the age of reason is attained faith must begin to kick in. You compare on who is baptized and instructed to one who is not and say that because the one is at a lesser level and less likely to persevere that baptism isn't very important. You give me no solid statistics and leave out an important category of those who have not been baptized or instructed. I will be if you put the group of baptized and not instructed against those who recieved nothing up to the age of 19 you would find a greater percentage of those who were baptized coming to faith later. I have faith that this is true. Just like you have faith that even though you cannot be infallibly certain that OSAS is true because you can't be 100% sure your biblical exegesis is correct, still you say you are assured of salvation. (even though 95% sure that your 100% assured of salvation is not 100% assured of salvation.). So I do not believe the conclusions you have drawn are as obvious as you think they are. Of course neither of us has solid statistics to back up what we say. I have some anecdotal evidence of some friends I know who were baptized but then not brought up with any teachings feeling a strong draw to the Church later in their teens. But in general I believe on faith that baptism has a real effect on people's souls. And of course you have an issue with two different means of salvation, one for adults and one for children in your system.


Blessings

[thessalonian]

Brian,

Another thought and some more hand waving. Let's take 100 kids in Christian homes, being raised in the faith, and get them to the age of reason where they declare Jesus Christ Personal Lord and savior. Now 50 of their fathers at this point loose their jobs, start drinking, turn mean and start living a prodigal life. (My understanding is you think they are still saved). Further he starts talking negatively about God in the house and denys Jesus in the manner that Peter did (they're still saved according to you, they just deny that they know Jesus). The whole family stops going to Church and there is no more religous education for the children. Now 10 years down the road (by the way how long can one deny Jesus) if you looked at each group of fifty kids, which group do you think you would find a greater percentage proclaiming a faith in Christ. I bet that it would be a big difference. I think this scenario is just as valid as your baptism senario.

Blessings

[Briguy]

Thess. Lets start with your last post. I think I agree with you if I am reading right this early morning. Yes, the group with the fathers who are stronger Christians would more likely be stronger Christians. They would have had a strong example to follow and so a higher percentage would be stronger in the faith. I absolutely believe that the fathers that fail would still be saved. Thess. It is Satan's desire that he drag us down. Why would we be surprized when he actually drags people down, even to a point where they struggle with what they believe. Jesus, however is strong when we are weak. He holds us tight because His faith and His grip are PERFECT, even when our faith is weak. We do not retain our salvation by our own accord. If we did then you would be right but thank God it is by His power and His might that we retain the salvation that was paid for by the very blood of God's son.

Now, your first post. If in Baptism a person is made a new creation if should have an impact for everyone who is made new. It not only has no impact on many it has had no impact on millions. Just about everyone I know was baptized as a baby. That is popular here in the midwest. Very few had anything to do with God growing up and many do not now. I spent many years drinking and swearing, etc... with these folks. I was Baptized in the Lutheran church but I was 29 before I trusted Christ, and really became "NEW". The Bible clearly says that those IN CHRIST are the new creation. Once NEW there will be impact, even if later comes a season of falling away. Now, look at 1 John 5:13 in my post above. It says that I can KNOW that I have eternal life. We know that eternal is forever because it has to be, hence the name eternal. If I can know I have eternal life I can know my salvation is 100% gaurenteed because eternal is forever. If I could lose eternnal life then eternal is not eternal. But eternal is forever in every context used in the Bible so if i can know it i can be 100% assured of it. If that does not sit well you will have to argue with John about it. We will have an eternity to discuss it with John in Heaven.

In Christ our anchor,
Brian

[Brother Adam]

Hi Brian,

You are again compartmentalizing verses.

1 John 3:13

(1) to those who believe in the name of the son of God
(2) [u]may[/u] have eternal life

We have already established biblically that one can at one point have faith in Christ and fall away (Mt 7:21; Mt 24:13; Heb 6:4-6; Gal 5:4, and others).

To address you're contention that logically if we at one point 'have' eternal life that we did not 'have' it if it can be lost. This is almost compartmentalizing logic. It pretty much denies everything we know biblically about a covenant. Christ will never leave us, but of course God cannot be made into a tyrrant, and we cannot be determanilists, so we still have free will and we can still become prodigal sons, points which you did not address yet.

We may know that we have a heavenly inhertance waiting for us and we can any time have the full hope of heaven, but we cannot say we have finished the race until our final salvation, when we enter into eternal life in heaven (Mt 10:22; Mt 24:13; Mk 8:35; Rom 5:9-10; Rom 13:11; Heb 9:28).

[guardsman]

[quote name='Briguy' date='May 9 2005, 08:01 AM']

Guardsman, The thing we must dertermine is when "eternal life" begins. We must turn to scripture for that answer. Eternal has to be forever or it is not eternal, right? I will make sure we agree on that before I go on. Thanks again for the nice discussion.

[/quote]
Good question. Everything in this world will pass away, eventually, so I don't know if the lives we are living currently would be considered part of "eternal life" or not. Maybe our "eternal lives" begin once Jesus gives us our eternal glorified bodies. I guess eternal means forever, and there is nothing eternal in this world, so there is no eternal life in this world, but the next world. So our eternal lives begin once we leave this world. I never really thought about when eternal life begins. Someone feel free to correct me if this is non-Catholic thinking. Just my thoughts.

[thessalonian]

Brian,

I haven't forgotten about this. Your making OSAS a superceeding principal of exegesis when you can't even say with 100% certainty that it is true. It is true only if your exegesis is correct, which you cannot state with 100% certainty. I'll try to give it time later.

[Briguy]

Hi Guardsman,
Thanks for the post. Please keep thinking and pondering when etrenal life starts. You said nothing on earth is eternal. Well, we do know our souls are eternal, they will live on in either Heaven or Hell. The Bible only gives those two options. The Bible is clear that belief in Jesus, a true saving belief, can produce eternal life. Eternal then starts when that belief occurs and eternal is forever with no end. It is a simple concept. Now, on top of that the Bible teaches that there is rejoicing in heaven over a lost one that is found. Could there be rejoicing over one who is found, in the perfectness of heaven if there was a chance that the found one could ultimately be lost again. That would mena there is rejoicing in heaven over ones who end up not in Heaven and that heaven can't be perfect because they mistakenly are rejoicing. That is deep and I will let you think on it.

BA, glad to hear from you. Hope your tests went well. I have decided who you remind me of now, Carson Weber (I think that was his name from the BB). You have compassion for what you believe but lack some charity and paitence towards others. At least that is the feel I get in posting with you. Hopefully, the love of people who disagree with you will come in time. Anyway, We have not established that you can fall away from Christ and I disagreee that the scriptures you cited say any such thing. Here is the Hebrews verse in context.
Hebrews 6
[4] For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[5] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[6] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
[7] For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
[8] But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
[9] But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

Adam, the Hebrews were a different bunch because of there deep ties to Judiasum (sp? - mind blank) They were kind of Jews and kind of gentiles. The concept here that some have seen what is true in Christ, they have felt the power and love and even the calling of the Holy Spirit. If that power does not cause them to convert (trust Christ) then it is hopeless, there is nothing more that could be done, they will be lost forever. To be that close to salvation and then back off, what a horrible thing but true of some Hebrews who could not break the ties of the old ways. Look at the last verse I included. To the saved, the beloved, they are encouaged to show their faith, to show their salvation, which they have obtained. Just a few verses later we see my verse from before that Jesus is the anchor of the soul. Ask yourself Adam, can you fathom a power on earth or from evil that is strong enough to rip Jesus, the anchor from holding on to the souls of His children. To believe you can lose your salvation is to believe that there is a power that would cause the anchoe to come out of the ground and the boat gets destroyed. I believe that Jesus is the anchor that holds because He is perfect in Love and Strength. BTW, that includes me myself trying to force the anchor loose. Sonship is forver, that is why the prodigal started out a son and ended up a son, and always was a son.

In Christian Love,
Brian

[guardsman]

[quote name='Briguy' date='May 16 2005, 08:11 AM'] the Bible teaches that there is rejoicing in heaven over a lost one that is found. Could there be rejoicing over one who is found, in the perfectness of heaven if there was a chance that the found one could ultimately be lost again. [/quote]
The found one was lost in the first place, right? Are you saying that if today I decided to renounce my belief in Jesus and start worshipping Satan, and then ten years from now I come back to the Church, there would not be rejoicing in Heaven? I assure you, this type of scenario has happened. People have left the Church and came back. People have also left the Church and never returned. People do strange things. Souls can be lost, despite your anchor analogy. Even souls that were previously "saved". If this were not true, confession and repentance would not be necessary. Once Saved Always Saved is a great doctrine for making our lives on earth as comfortable as we like it to be. Unfortunately being a Christian has nothing to do with being comfortable. An assurance of salvation, despite anything we do, is the ultimate comfort. If you want assurance of your salvation, become a member of the One True Church, The Universal Church, and bow to her authority. I don't know why protestants are always trying talk Catholics out of their faith.

[Brother Adam]

Brian,

You are still failing to understand the difference between being born again, being saved, between grace, between merit, between faith, between eternal life. OSAS is a doctrine of hell. Why? My brother in law is a drug addict and sex offender, but he is going to heaven because he 'put his trust in Jesus'. To him, that means when he was 8 he said a prayer to 'accept Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior" but his life hasn't changed and he believes organized religion is for 'panzies'. This type of thing is a testament to why the "Sinner's prayer" and OSAS is bunk. As genuine as his prayer may have been when he was 8 years old, like 10's of millions of Baptists who later find out 'they weren't really saved' and have to go to another altar call, they don't understand the importance of works in their life. That while through baptism they may have been born again, they can choose to fall away from the faith, fall into mortal sin. Were they born again in baptism? Sure they were. There is an indelible mark that cannot be removed. Have they chosen to reject their inheritance? Yes.

OSAS truly is a license to live life however you want 1, 10, or 20 years down the road becuase of course, you've already been saved. You may have some 'logic' problems, but through scriptural study and understanding the basic idea of a covenant they can easily be overcome. Where they are, there are graces there all the more, but when they reject their sonship in Christ, they cannot be saved, they have sinned unto death, and unless they go through metonoia (which all of us go through daily) they will go to hell when they die.

By saying, "I am incapable of making a decision to reject Christ" you have become a determinalist and have just told me there is no free will. You may want to rethink that decision. Hebrews 6 indeed does not say "I can't even reject Christ if I so choose, I have no choice, now that I said a prayer, I have to go to heaven".

Jesus speaks to this in Matthew 7:21, Mt 24:13, and let's not forget the story of the sheep and the goats. Why were the goats cast into hell? Was it because they did not believe in Christ? Quite the other hand, they produced bad fruits.

God be with you!

Edited May 17, 2005 by Brother Adam

[Briguy]

Hey Guardsman, I really don't have a problem with you being Catholic, as long as you are a Christian, and bound for Heaven. I only try to talk unbelievers into being believers. You seem like a believer to me. I will address your question later. Take care and please do not let me upset you, I only am trying to argue what I see the Bible teaching us, I mean no harm.

Adam, I still sense a hostility from you. I am begining to think you are arguing with yourself. Your heart may be telling you something different from what you are now studying. Anyway, thats just the social worker in me speaking. There is a reason I annoy you Adam. Please try to figure out what it is. You know my kindness from a couple years of posting here and on the BB. I debate because it is fun to challange and be challanged, it is a growth opportunity. I thank you for the depth of your posts they have been a challange.
I do not like the "sinner's prayer". People that use that term to me have a misunderstanding of being saved. If saying words could save then we should trick people into saying the words. I believe baptism is simular. If it could really mark people with a seal then why not sprinke everyone from a airplane? You see it is not words from the head that saves, it is words from the heart. Who confesses from the heart? "The elect" that is what the Bible says. The Bible says and I will post the verse later drom Acts that those who believed were those whom God ordained to believe. How it fits together with free will is difficult but I refuse to deny what the Bible says in lieu of what other verses seem to say or because of a feeling or because someone else says I should believe. I will continue to ponder, pray, read and grow in knowledge of the Lord. I do not like to be lumped in with and denomination because then you think I believe in things like a sinners prayer. I go to a Christmas program at an Assembly of God church every year. They have a great program but then ruin it in the end by leading everyone in a sinner's prayer, even telling the saved to say it again to make others more comfortable. That is not heart salvation for most that would be some head confession. Anyway, Paul clearly taught in Romans that we should not sin just because we are covered in Grace. OSAS is a license to live and rejoice and not a open door to sin. Remember God chatises those he loves. He will get the prodigals attention, that is certain.

In Christian Love,
Brian

[guardsman]

[quote name='Briguy' date='May 17 2005, 07:57 AM']Hey Guardsman, I really don't have a problem with you being Catholic, as long as you are a Christian, and bound for Heaven. I only try to talk unbelievers into being believers. You seem like a believer to me. I will address your question later. Take care and please do not let me upset you, I only am trying to argue what I see the Bible teaching us, I mean no harm.[/quote]
You're not upsetting me. I thought I put one of them smiley deals in my last post. I just always think it's funny when people talk to Catholics as if we aren't already Christians. (I'm not talking about you. I understand we were simply having a discussion on the details of exactly when we are saved. I believe there is a good passage in the Bible that says something about "I was saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved." Maybe someone can help me out here, I'll try to find it)

[Myles Domini]

Salvation is conditional. One is guaranteed of Heaven so long as one co-operates with grace. Look very carefully at Matthew's gospel at the way people address Jesus particularly his disciples, particularly at the Last Supper. Judas is the only one who calls him 'Rabbi' all the rest call him 'Lord' because they confess him as such. However, even those who know he is the Lord will not go to Heaven. Jesus himself says as much in Matthew 7 in the sermon on the mount. Even those that call him 'Lord, Lord'--those who are not like Judas, those actually do know who He is--and believe in him and even preach and prophesy and do miracles in His name can be damned. Belief in God does not gurantee salvation James 2 makes that clear for even the demons believe and they shudder. Indeed, those who know the most have the most to fear according to James (remember what he says about the teachers?) Even in Romans 8 there is a pre-requiste. We must suffer with Christ in order to be glorified with him (Romans 8:17). But if we do not deny ourselves and take up our cross daily then there will be no salvation. One can not enjoy the glory of the ressurection without first facing the fire of crucifixion. "Can you be baptised with the baptism with which I am baptised?" said the Lord. It is a question all of us will have to face sooner or later. If we call Him Lord, Lord and do not do what he says we are vainglorious and false.

I would agree that the faith that works by love is salvic but only because it works in co-operation with God's action. That is the true faith, no?

[guardsman]

I agree with Myles. I just don't say it near as good.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Briguy' date='May 17 2005, 09:57 AM'] Hey Guardsman, I really don't have a problem with you being Catholic, as long as you are a Christian, and bound for Heaven. [/quote]
Bri all Catholics are christians

We are baptised into the Body of Christ.

And the only way to be bound to heaven is to stay in a state of grace here on earth.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='May 17 2005, 10:07 AM'] Bri all Catholics are christians

We are baptised into the Body of Christ.

And the only way to be bound to heaven is to stay in a state of grace here on earth. [/quote]
It's interesting isn't it? The incredible typology in play here. In all of the covenants of the Old Testament, not one of them assured the salvation of the person simply by entering the covenant. With Noah for instance, he could at any time have said "I don't trust in you God, I trust I can make it on my own" and jumped ship to try to find land for swim for months on end. A Jew could chose on his own to no longer practice the faith and leave his family, but he is still a Jew. If he comes back he doesn't have to become a Jew again, he only needs to be reconciled to his faith. As Christians, from which Judiasm is our root, we too can chose to reject God, but we still remain adopted children of God, that can never change. If we choose to come back to God, his grace is sufficient, we only need to reconcile ourselves, but we remain adopted sons none the less. Can someone baptized into the New Covenant go to hell? Yep.