Medjugorje

[dspen2005]

if it is true about the disobedient franciscans and the fact of cohabitation, doesn't that invalidate the appearance as not being genuine... would this be considered a bad fruit of the appearances? and doesn't the Church judge the authenticity of these occurrences by their fruits?? seems like a rotten apple, if these allegations are correct.

[popestpiusx]

It certainly doesn't help their argument.

[popestpiusx]

Here is some information I have posted countless times before:

[url="http://www.mdaviesonmedj.com/fulltext.rtf"]http://www.mdaviesonmedj.com/fulltext.rtf[/url]
[url="http://home.earthlink.net/~agless/Medjugorje.htm"]http://home.earthlink.net/~agless/Medjugorje.htm[/url]
[url="http://unitypublishing.com/Apparitions/MedjugorjeIndex.html"]http://unitypublishing.com/Apparitions/MedjugorjeIndex.html[/url]

If the BVM is appearing there, then she is incredibly boring and a liar (statements made by her have been completely false, and proven so). There are so many things wrong with the 'apparitions'. I don't have time to get any more into this. Perhaps later.

[philothea]

Ouch.

[url="http://unitypublishing.com/newswire/finaldec.html"] Franciscans to be Removed from Medjugorje [/url] makes it all look pretty bad.

I was under the impression that obedience was extremely important in relgious orders. :angry:

[Nicole8223]

Something that would make me believe, if I doubted, was that these 6 visionaries have said that they saw the Blessed Mother for the first time in 1981. Not one of them has wavered since then. Why would six teenagers give up the last 25 years of their lives for something that was not true? They were threatened with jail and death, and still they stuck to the story. Why? Why would a teenager do that if this was not true?

That's something I think of.

Also, I met several times with 2 of the visionaries, and I think it is passing judgment to say they live worldy lives and are not humble. I actually completely disagree. My friend hosted Ivan in her home a week ago, and we got to spend some great time with him. The man is so very humble...speaks nothing of himself, only of our Lady and her messages. He travels around the world, leaving his family, putting himself at the mercy of people who host him, and receives no money from it. He actualy refuses to go speak if there is a charge to get in for people. So if you are saying he is worldly cause he drives a Jeep Liberty and has a decent home, I think there is more to someone than that.

As for the other visionaries, they are in the poor country of Bosnia. Their lives are devoted to sharing the story of Medugorje and the messages. They constanly host pilgrims in their homes, cooking for them and taking care of them, as servants. It is truly amazing!

I am not saying "Believe it or else!" I am just sharing what I have seen. I, too, was skeptical at one time.

I do see that there is a lot of hype, too. People make a lot of claims ("I saw the sun spin!" "My rosaries turned to gold!"), and while many may just be people getting caught up in things, who are we to say. I saw none of these things. Our group leader told us to forget the spinning sun and the physical miracles, and to look deeper for the truth that lies in the Eucharist and the Mass and sacraments.

One last thing...in one of her messages Our Lady said to the visionaries, "If you ever have to make the choice to go to Mass or come see me, do not come to me. Go to the Mass." I think that is an awesome testimony to what these messages are about.

[jezic]

i do not think they live worldly lives. There are many books and websites that attest to this fact.

www.medjugorje.org
www.medjugorjeusa.org

I would look at these first.

It is true that satan strikes as well. If this is the most hotly contested one then it would be a clue in that something is going on there. If it were nothing then satan wouldn't care.

[Ellenita]

It has been reported in the catholic press in the UK that parishes have been specifically asked by the authorities in the vatican not to make pilgrimages to Medjugorje while it is being investigated. It hasn't yet recieved approval and I thought we are asked to be obedient to the leadership of our church.....

[jezic]

we are, why would the Holy See ever not encourage people to go there?

[Angel]

I think its a very Beautiful and Holy place where miraculous things happen. I have always wanted to go to Medjugorje Im hoping maybe this summer even if its Gods will. I believe with every ounce of my being that Mary is appearing there and has been. I was fortunate to see one of the visionaries when she came here to Moncton quite a few years ago i may have been 12 at the time. Her name is Vishka (sp) and even tho i was quite young, i remember how moving and touching it was to see her. We were seated right behind this big cross behind the stage, so when she knelt down and was praying and looking up at the cross we could see her face, and she was crying and just her face was glowing it was so beautiful When I go to Mary house, at the farm at the very top of the hill they have this large cross and it reminds me everytime i travel up to it of Medjugorje. I have always wanted to go to Medjugorje and hope to soon

[Ellenita]

[quote]why would the Holy See ever not encourage people to go there? [/quote]

I think it's because it is still being investigated by the authorities.

[Nicole8223]

The Church has said it is fine for pilgrims to travel there, but that it should be known that it has not yet been investigated and approved.

[Ellenita]

[quote]The Church has said it is fine for pilgrims to travel there[/quote]

Individuals presumably? I definately read that parishes are asked not to make pilgrimages there.

[philothea]

[quote name='Ellenita' date='May 3 2005, 05:23 PM']
Individuals presumably? I definately read that parishes are asked not to make pilgrimages there. [/quote]
I heard the same thing. It's even iffy whether you can have a priest leading your private pilgrimage.

[Nicole8223]

I'll see if I can find the documentation. I know that it is not reccomended that a parish host the visionaries as speakers until the church further investigates, but they can advertise for any speaking events. A friend of mine just had Ivan at her parish, and she had to produce all the documentation for her bishop before being given permission. I'll find out the source that said it is good for pilgrims to visit.

[Socrates]

While I'm not an expert, and only the Church can make the final judgmenent on this, I do not believe the alleged apparitions there are real.
(See the links popestpiusx posted.) The apparitions contain falsehoods, and bring about disobedience and disunity in the Church. And they are nothing like the approved apparitions, which occured for a limited time, had a focused message, and ended with a definitive sign from Our Lady. The Medjugorje messages just go on and on and on.

Edited May 4, 2005 by Socrates

[jezic]

how do they bring about disunity?

I am wondering this more because i have never heard anything negative about them ......

[Nicole8223]

His Holiness, Pope Urban VIII stated: "In cases which concern private revelations, it is better to believe than not to believe, for, if you believe, and it is proven true, you will be happy that you have believed, because our Holy Mother asked it. If you believe, and it should be proven false, you will receive all blessings as if it had been true, because you believed it to be true."(Pope Urban VIII, 1623-44)

Jezic, if you are interested, go to [url="http://www.medugorje.org/faq.htm"]http://www.medugorje.org/faq.htm[/url]. They have answers and documentation for all of the questions being raised.

[quote]Pavao Žanic originally visited Medjugorje five times in the first two months of the apparitions in 1981 and performed a thorough investigation. Afterwards he came only to confer the sacrament of Confirmations to the faithful. In front of over 3000 people at Holy Mass, he declared:

"I am deeply convinced that no child who says that they have seen Our Lady, has been talked into doing so. If we were speaking about one child only, one might say he could be stubborn and that not even the police could make the child renounce what he said. But six innocent, simple children in the space of half an hour, would, if they were pushed, admit all. None of the priests, I guarantee, had any idea of putting the children up to something.... I am also convinced that the children are not lying. The children are only speaking out what's in their hearts... It is certain: the children are not lying". (From a sermon given on the feast of St. James, the patron saint of Medjugorje, on the 25th of July 1981)

In "Glas Koncila", the Croatian national catholic newspaper, 16th of August 1981, he stated; "It is definite that the children were not incited by anyone, and especially not by the church, to lie."

It is unclear why in the months to follow that Bishop Zanic changed his mind. Some say it was due to threats and pressure by the Communist government of imprisonment of both Fr. Jozo and the Bishop if the apparitions did not cease. We all know that Fr. Jozo served 18 months of harsh inprisonment for refusing to denounce Medjugorje. Others say that a reported comment from Our Lady regarding a wrong judgement the Bishop had made with a Franciscan priest infuriated the Bishop. But regardless the ultimate outcome was that the Bishop turned against Medjugorje.[/quote]

[philothea]

[quote name='Nicole8223' date='May 3 2005, 09:33 PM'] His Holiness, Pope Urban VIII stated: "In cases which concern private revelations, it is better to believe than not to believe, for, if you believe, and it is proven true, you will be happy that you have believed, because our Holy Mother asked it. If you believe, and it should be proven false, you will receive all blessings as if it had been true, because you believed it to be true."(Pope Urban VIII, 1623-44)
[/quote]
Boggle.



Obviously His Holiness was speaking of [b]approved[/b] private revelations, right?

Edited May 4, 2005 by philothea

[Nicole8223]

[quote name='philothea' date='May 3 2005, 09:44 PM'] Boggle.



Obviously His Holiness was speaking of [b]approved[/b] private revelations, right? [/quote]
No, he was referring to apparitions which had not been investigated fully by the Church, such as Medugorje.

This is why he says if it should be proven true or if it is proven false...implying that it hasn't been declared either way.

[corban711]

but the problem with Medjugorje is not that the Church is only looking into it. the bishops of their diocese have repeatedly said there should be no public, organized pilgrimages there and they have denied these are apparitions of our Blessed Mother. promoters of Medjugorje keep saying, "well Rome hasn't said yet"..but it isn't Rome's job...they have given authority to the local bishop to decide private revelation and all the local bishops that have made statements have been negative. plus, the bishop wrote a pretty rough article on the disobedience of the francsicans.

I don't think their disobedience disapproves the apparitions necessarily, but it will be very difficult for the Church to approve apparitions that are surrounded with disobedience.