Catechism contradictions

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Dave' date='May 8 2005, 08:59 PM'] It's not about emotion. It's about Christian charity toward others! Also, I said it's not considered lying to withhold the truth from someone who has no right to it.

But this thread is not about lying; it's about catechisms. So it's now time to return to this thread's original subject. [/quote]
morality and emotion are enemys of each other. We cant determine what is morally correct by our emotions. Otherwise, everyone would have a different concept (notice in this case it would be called a concept) of morallity. So, you are right.........its not about emotion.


Who are we to judge who holds right to the truth and who doesnt?

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='May 8 2005, 12:35 AM'] during WWII there were nuns hiding Jews in a convent. the Nazi officer asked the nuns if there were any jews in the covnent, the nun replied "why would there be jews in a convent??" [/quote]
The correct answer is "yes, there are jews here", but the right answer is no.

If you must look at it this way, look at how the 10 commandments are listed. I hate to put it this way.. but not bearing false witness is farther down that not killing. Killing is much worse, so if you must lie to save an [b]innocent[/b] life, then you must lie. This lie is not causing any evil, so for as far at breaking the commandment, you really are not because by lying, you are actually conforming to God's will by preventing [b]innocent[/b] death.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='May 8 2005, 09:13 PM'] The correct answer is "yes, there are jews here", but the right answer is no.

If you must look at it this way, look at how the 10 commandments are listed. I hate to put it this way.. but not bearing false witness is farther down that not killing. Killing is much worse, so if you must lie to save an [b]innocent[/b] life, then you must lie. This lie is not causing any evil, so for as far at breaking the commandment, you really are not because by lying, you are actually conforming to God's will by preventing [b]innocent[/b] death. [/quote]
is there anything in the bible that says that you are conforming to gods will by lying if your intention is to protect innocent life?

[guardsman]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='May 8 2005, 12:08 AM']does the catechism really say this? I dont agree with it if it does...........if someone asks you for the truth and you withhold it from them because you think they dont deserve it..............no, this would be judging them.........the bible says that judging others is wrong. There is no way to tell who is deserving of the truth and who isnt.[/quote]
It's called 'common sense'. Obviously it's ok to lie to a tyrant to save an innocent person's life. Do you really need the Church to spell that out for you?

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='May 7 2005, 04:26 PM'] Another thing to keep in mind is that historical context is important in evaluating statements made by the Church. For instance one Pope (can't remember which offhand) condemned democracy. No kidding. Yet another praised it. (Pius XII). Context. The first case was with regard to aethisitic democracy of the French revolution. The second was with regard to American democracy. So never let someone give you a quote from a Pope or a council or a book at face value. Always be willing to track it down and find the context before your jump the gun and go down the path of liberalism.


Blessings [/quote]
Actually all democracies which seperate Church and State have been Condemned, Offically and with the Authority of the Pope as Pope by Pius IX this includes american democracy.

[guardsman]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='May 8 2005, 09:16 PM'] is there anything in the bible that says that you are conforming to gods will by lying if your intention is to protect innocent life? [/quote]
False witness means making something up about someone to damage them. It does not relate to lying to a nazi about the location of a Jew. I seriously doubt we would be penalized by God for lying to someone who wants to kill someone else. I think God would reward us. Lying is not always a sin. It depends on the circumstances. Lying to protect someone is totally different than lying for bad reasons. I can't believe we're having this conversation.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='May 8 2005, 09:13 PM'] The correct answer is "yes, there are jews here", but the right answer is no.

If you must look at it this way, look at how the 10 commandments are listed. I hate to put it this way.. but not bearing false witness is farther down that not killing. Killing is much worse, so if you must lie to save an [b]innocent[/b] life, then you must lie. This lie is not causing any evil, so for as far at breaking the commandment, you really are not because by lying, you are actually conforming to God's will by preventing [b]innocent[/b] death. [/quote]
Actually lying is always sinful, saying " there are know jews here is sinful as that is directly lying and as Christians we are obliged to defend the Truth. However it would be permissable not to give information but not to actively lye. So you could say " you can come in and look around..." knowing that the Jews where hidden well, but you are not supposed to directly lie even to the enemy.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='guardsman' date='May 8 2005, 09:16 PM'] It's called 'common sense'. Obviously it's ok to lie to a tyrant to save an innocent person's life. Do you really need the Church to spell that out for you? [/quote]
this is your belief?

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='May 8 2005, 09:23 PM'] Actually lying is always sinful, saying " there are know jews here is sinful as that is directly lying and as Christians we are obliged to defend the Truth. However it would be permissable not to give information but not to actively lye. So you could say " you can come in and look around..." knowing that the Jews where hidden well, but you are not supposed to directly lie even to the enemy. [/quote]
thank you

[guardsman]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='May 8 2005, 09:24 PM'] this is your belief? [/quote]
Yeah. Are you about to quote something to put me in my place? It's my belief, or I wouldn't have typed it. But if I'm wrong, I bow to the Magesterium.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='May 8 2005, 09:23 PM'] Actually lying is always sinful, saying " there are know jews here is sinful as that is directly lying and as Christians we are obliged to defend the Truth. However it would be permissable not to give information but not to actively lye. So you could say " you can come in and look around..." knowing that the Jews where hidden well, but you are not supposed to directly lie even to the enemy. [/quote]
so who is wrong here Don John? Me and You or the catechism?

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='May 8 2005, 09:23 PM'] Actually lying is always sinful, saying " there are know jews here is sinful as that is directly lying and as Christians we are obliged to defend the Truth. However it would be permissable not to give information but not to actively lye. So you could say " you can come in and look around..." knowing that the Jews where hidden well, but you are not supposed to directly lie even to the enemy. [/quote]
Gotcha

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='guardsman' date='May 8 2005, 09:27 PM'] Yeah. Are you about to quote something to put me in my place? It's my belief, or I wouldn't have typed it. But if I'm wrong, I bow to the Magesterium. [/quote]
I will respect ur beliefs and consider them for my own. I just wanted to distinguish belief from fact thats all.

[guardsman]

How on earth could anyone think lying to protect innocent life is a sin? Show me one Bible reference that says lying to protect innocent life is a sin. No one can, because it isn't in the Bible. Jesus calls us to do all we can to protect those who cannot defend themselves. That's what charity means.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='May 8 2005, 09:27 PM'] so who is wrong here Don John? Me and You or the catechism? [/quote]
I don't believe I am in conflict with the Catachism, I would like a referance to the paragraph before I respond to that question.

The Tradition of the Church falls along the line I am saying, St. Thomas has a whole discussion on wether it is okay to lay ambush and this is the pivotal distinction.

[guardsman]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='May 8 2005, 09:28 PM'] I will respect ur beliefs and consider them for my own. I just wanted to distinguish belief from fact thats all. [/quote]
Sorry, I misunderstood what you meant when you said "is this your belief." I took it as confrontational and I was wrong. It is just my belief, not official Church teaching, as far as I know, but most of the time I find that my beliefs square with Church teaching.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='guardsman' date='May 8 2005, 09:36 PM'] How on earth could anyone think lying to protect innocent life is a sin? Show me one Bible reference that says lying to protect innocent life is a sin. No one can, because it isn't in the Bible. Jesus calls us to do all we can to protect those who cannot defend themselves. That's what charity means. [/quote]
lying is a sin, it is a violation of the Truth which is a violation of Christ. Sometimes we are called upon to suffer for the Truth, sometime we are called to Die for it. If your life is threatened your culpability might be mitigated but culpible or not it is still a sinful act.



[quote]Jesus calls us to do all we can to protect those who cannot defend themselves.[/quote]

I agree completly. So when did you last plug an abortionist in the head?

[philothea]

CCC 1753:
[quote] A good intention (for example, that of helping one's neighbor) does not make behavior that is intrinsically disordered, such as lying and calumny, good or just. the end does not justify the means. Thus the condemnation of an innocent person cannot be justified as a legitimate means of saving the nation. On the other hand, an added bad intention (such as vainglory) makes an act evil that, in and of itself, can be good (such as almsgiving) [/quote]

[guardsman]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='May 8 2005, 09:43 PM']





I agree completly. So when did you last plug an abortionist in the head? [/quote]
Dude, I'm a member of Priests For Life, but they don't want us to do that. Fr. Frank is pro-life, not pro-murder.

[guardsman]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='May 8 2005, 09:43 PM'] lying is a sin, it is a violation of the Truth which is a violation of Christ. Sometimes we are called upon to suffer for the Truth, sometime we are called to Die for it. If your life is threatened your culpability might be mitigated but culpible or not it is still a sinful act.




[/quote]
I'd like to see some Scriptural support for this statement. Or Church support, whatever. I mean lying to protect innocent life. I doubt Scriptures or Church documents will say there is anything wrong with it.