cmotherofpirl Posted May 8, 2005 Share Posted May 8, 2005 Its not even evasive. One is not required to volunteer information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted May 9, 2005 Share Posted May 9, 2005 [quote name='Dave' date='May 8 2005, 12:28 AM'] Judging? I think not! If you were hiding a Jew during World War II, and you told the truth to the Nazis -- that you were hiding a Jew, you'd be an accomplice to the sin of murder! And if it's a situation where the truth could get someone hurt or killed, then there's no question that the person to whom you're speaking has no right to the truth! [/quote] i disagree.........there is never anything wrong with telling the truth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted May 9, 2005 Author Share Posted May 9, 2005 (edited) [quote name='infinitelord1' date='May 8 2005, 09:51 PM'] i disagree.........there is never anything wrong with telling the truth [/quote] Well then I suggest you stop disagreeing and start agreeing. At any rate, prove it. Show me that it would be morally obligatory to tell the truth in the situation I described. Edited May 9, 2005 by Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted May 9, 2005 Share Posted May 9, 2005 [quote name='infinitelord1' date='May 8 2005, 08:51 PM'] i disagree.........there is never anything wrong with telling the truth [/quote] if one asks you for the truth and you tell them a lie....... a lie is never right(correct) therefore a lie is the opposite of the truth. Is god ever the opposite of the truth? No. Would he ever act according to the opposite of the truth........No. We are letting emotion determine what is right. Our sympathy for the jews would be an emotion that we let determine what is right and wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted May 9, 2005 Author Share Posted May 9, 2005 (edited) [quote name='infinitelord1' date='May 8 2005, 09:57 PM'] if one asks you for the truth and you tell them a lie....... a lie is never right(correct) therefore a lie is the opposite of the truth. Is god ever the opposite of the truth? No. Would he ever act according to the opposite of the truth........No. We are letting emotion determine what is right. Our sympathy for the jews would be an emotion that we let determine what is right and wrong. [/quote] It's not about emotion. It's about Christian charity toward others! Also, I said it's not considered lying to withhold the truth from someone who has no right to it. But this thread is not about lying; it's about catechisms. So it's now time to return to this thread's original subject. Edited May 9, 2005 by Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted May 9, 2005 Share Posted May 9, 2005 [quote name='Dave' date='May 8 2005, 08:59 PM'] It's not about emotion. It's about Christian charity toward others! Also, I said it's not considered lying to withhold the truth from someone who has no right to it. But this thread is not about lying; it's about catechisms. So it's now time to return to this thread's original subject. [/quote] morality and emotion are enemys of each other. We cant determine what is morally correct by our emotions. Otherwise, everyone would have a different concept (notice in this case it would be called a concept) of morallity. So, you are right.........its not about emotion. Who are we to judge who holds right to the truth and who doesnt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted May 9, 2005 Share Posted May 9, 2005 [quote name='Aloysius' date='May 8 2005, 12:35 AM'] during WWII there were nuns hiding Jews in a convent. the Nazi officer asked the nuns if there were any jews in the covnent, the nun replied "why would there be jews in a convent??" [/quote] The correct answer is "yes, there are jews here", but the right answer is no. If you must look at it this way, look at how the 10 commandments are listed. I hate to put it this way.. but not bearing false witness is farther down that not killing. Killing is much worse, so if you must lie to save an [b]innocent[/b] life, then you must lie. This lie is not causing any evil, so for as far at breaking the commandment, you really are not because by lying, you are actually conforming to God's will by preventing [b]innocent[/b] death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted May 9, 2005 Share Posted May 9, 2005 [quote name='fidei defensor' date='May 8 2005, 09:13 PM'] The correct answer is "yes, there are jews here", but the right answer is no. If you must look at it this way, look at how the 10 commandments are listed. I hate to put it this way.. but not bearing false witness is farther down that not killing. Killing is much worse, so if you must lie to save an [b]innocent[/b] life, then you must lie. This lie is not causing any evil, so for as far at breaking the commandment, you really are not because by lying, you are actually conforming to God's will by preventing [b]innocent[/b] death. [/quote] is there anything in the bible that says that you are conforming to gods will by lying if your intention is to protect innocent life? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guardsman Posted May 9, 2005 Share Posted May 9, 2005 [quote name='infinitelord1' date='May 8 2005, 12:08 AM']does the catechism really say this? I dont agree with it if it does...........if someone asks you for the truth and you withhold it from them because you think they dont deserve it..............no, this would be judging them.........the bible says that judging others is wrong. There is no way to tell who is deserving of the truth and who isnt.[/quote] It's called 'common sense'. Obviously it's ok to lie to a tyrant to save an innocent person's life. Do you really need the Church to spell that out for you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted May 9, 2005 Share Posted May 9, 2005 [quote name='thessalonian' date='May 7 2005, 04:26 PM'] Another thing to keep in mind is that historical context is important in evaluating statements made by the Church. For instance one Pope (can't remember which offhand) condemned democracy. No kidding. Yet another praised it. (Pius XII). Context. The first case was with regard to aethisitic democracy of the French revolution. The second was with regard to American democracy. So never let someone give you a quote from a Pope or a council or a book at face value. Always be willing to track it down and find the context before your jump the gun and go down the path of liberalism. Blessings [/quote] Actually all democracies which seperate Church and State have been Condemned, Offically and with the Authority of the Pope as Pope by Pius IX this includes american democracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guardsman Posted May 9, 2005 Share Posted May 9, 2005 [quote name='infinitelord1' date='May 8 2005, 09:16 PM'] is there anything in the bible that says that you are conforming to gods will by lying if your intention is to protect innocent life? [/quote] False witness means making something up about someone to damage them. It does not relate to lying to a nazi about the location of a Jew. I seriously doubt we would be penalized by God for lying to someone who wants to kill someone else. I think God would reward us. Lying is not always a sin. It depends on the circumstances. Lying to protect someone is totally different than lying for bad reasons. I can't believe we're having this conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted May 9, 2005 Share Posted May 9, 2005 [quote name='fidei defensor' date='May 8 2005, 09:13 PM'] The correct answer is "yes, there are jews here", but the right answer is no. If you must look at it this way, look at how the 10 commandments are listed. I hate to put it this way.. but not bearing false witness is farther down that not killing. Killing is much worse, so if you must lie to save an [b]innocent[/b] life, then you must lie. This lie is not causing any evil, so for as far at breaking the commandment, you really are not because by lying, you are actually conforming to God's will by preventing [b]innocent[/b] death. [/quote] Actually lying is always sinful, saying " there are know jews here is sinful as that is directly lying and as Christians we are obliged to defend the Truth. However it would be permissable not to give information but not to actively lye. So you could say " you can come in and look around..." knowing that the Jews where hidden well, but you are not supposed to directly lie even to the enemy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted May 9, 2005 Share Posted May 9, 2005 [quote name='guardsman' date='May 8 2005, 09:16 PM'] It's called 'common sense'. Obviously it's ok to lie to a tyrant to save an innocent person's life. Do you really need the Church to spell that out for you? [/quote] this is your belief? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted May 9, 2005 Share Posted May 9, 2005 [quote name='Don John of Austria' date='May 8 2005, 09:23 PM'] Actually lying is always sinful, saying " there are know jews here is sinful as that is directly lying and as Christians we are obliged to defend the Truth. However it would be permissable not to give information but not to actively lye. So you could say " you can come in and look around..." knowing that the Jews where hidden well, but you are not supposed to directly lie even to the enemy. [/quote] thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guardsman Posted May 9, 2005 Share Posted May 9, 2005 [quote name='infinitelord1' date='May 8 2005, 09:24 PM'] this is your belief? [/quote] Yeah. Are you about to quote something to put me in my place? It's my belief, or I wouldn't have typed it. But if I'm wrong, I bow to the Magesterium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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