Catechism contradictions

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='philothea' date='May 8 2005, 09:53 PM'] CCC 1753:
[/quote]
Okay so that say's exactly what I am saying.

[philothea]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='May 8 2005, 09:19 PM'] Actually all democracies which seperate Church and State have been Condemned, Offically and with the Authority of the Pope as Pope by Pius IX this includes american democracy. [/quote]
Yeah, I found that when I was researching Americanism and the appropriateness of patriotism. That condemnation interesting, and not very well known.

Edited May 9, 2005 by philothea

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='guardsman' date='May 8 2005, 09:56 PM'] Dude, I'm a member of Priests For Life, but they don't want us to do that. Fr. Frank is pro-life, not pro-murder. [/quote]
Killing the Guilty to defend the innocent is not murder, but that is a topic for another Thread.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='guardsman' date='May 8 2005, 09:59 PM'] I'd like to see some Scriptural support for this statement. Or Church support, whatever. I mean lying to protect innocent life. I doubt Scriptures or Church documents will say there is anything wrong with it. [/quote]
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/304003.htm"]here[/url]


Read this St. Thomas on laying ambushes, if you don't see the correlation after reading it r if that isn't good enough I'll look some more.

[philothea]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='May 8 2005, 10:00 PM'] Okay so that say's exactly what I am saying. [/quote]
Yep.

It does initially seem unreasonable, but what else could the Church do? Give conditional permission to do wrong, and let people guess at bad vs. worse for themselves? Asking for huge trouble that way.

No, we're supposed to be perfect. Even though that can seem impossible. (Sigh.)

[guardsman]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='May 8 2005, 10:04 PM'] [url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/304003.htm"]here[/url]


Read this St. Thomas on laying ambushes, if you don't see the correlation after reading it r if that isn't good enough I'll look some more. [/quote]
Give not that which is Holy to dogs. If evil people are after innocent people, it is not a sin to protect them by lying to the evil people.

[Aloysius]

lying is always wrong. however, you do not have to tell people everything. if they ask you a question, you can simply not answer the question. in my example with the nazi, someone said the correct answer is yes and the moral answer is no... i told you there is nothing wrong with saying "Jews? in a convent? that's absurd what would Jews be doing in a convent?" or perhaps "you won't find any Jews here".


those are not lies. if I say "you won't find any Jews here" and do not believe they will find any, how is that a lie? it isn't.

EDIT: and fitting that in with aquinas, he is clearly saying that witholding information is alright, but never actually giving false information.

[guardsman]

[quote name='philothea' date='May 8 2005, 10:10 PM']

No, we're supposed to be perfect.  Even though that can seem impossible.  (Sigh.)[/quote]
It not only seems impossible, it IS impossible. We, as Catholic Christians, are not supposed to be perfect, but strive for perfection. But we will never attain it. Not in this life, anyway.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='May 8 2005, 12:08 AM'] no, this would be judging them.........the bible says that judging others is wrong. There is no way to tell who is deserving of the truth and who isnt. [/quote]
You've gotta be kidding me......

I'll tell you what. If you're ever being assualted on the street, I won't intervene, otherwise I'll be guilty of judging your attackers, right? You can thank me when you awake from your coma.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='May 8 2005, 08:51 PM'] i disagree.........there is never anything wrong with telling the truth [/quote]
Yeah, there's nothing wrong if Nazis find some Polish seminarian who helped a Jewish girl escaped from a slave labor camp and execute him....













You do know who I'm referring to, right?

[guardsman]

[quote name='Norseman82' date='May 8 2005, 10:16 PM'] You've gotta be kidding me......

I'll tell you what. If you're ever being assualted on the street, I won't intervene, otherwise I'll be guilty of judging your attackers, right? You can thank me when you awake from your coma. [/quote]
Thank God there's another Catholic that thinks like me. I was beginning to wonder if I was Baptist or something

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='May 8 2005, 10:12 PM'] lying is always wrong. however, you do not have to tell people everything. if they ask you a question, you can simply not answer the question. in my example with the nazi, someone said the correct answer is yes and the moral answer is no... i told you there is nothing wrong with saying "Jews? in a convent? that's absurd what would Jews be doing in a convent?" or perhaps "you won't find any Jews here".


those are not lies. if I say "you won't find any Jews here" and do not believe they will find any, how is that a lie? it isn't.

EDIT: and fitting that in with aquinas, he is clearly saying that witholding information is alright, but never actually giving false information. [/quote]
Just be very careful, as evasiveness can sometimes be detected and seen through.

[PedroX]

Don John and Norseman have as usual covered this well. This is a tricky situation, and it must be remembered that according to St. Thomas, and the CCC lying is intrinsically evil. There is nothing redemptive about it. Hard to believe sometimes, but neccessary.

Oh, and the Catholic Church has never praised American Democracy. She has always taken principled objection to its Godlessness and its excessiveness.

peace...

[guardsman]

[quote name='PedroX' date='May 8 2005, 11:27 PM']

Oh, and the Catholic Church has never praised American Democracy. She has always taken principled objection to its Godlessness and its excessiveness.

[/quote]
Where could I find some reading material about this?

[philothea]

[url="http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9syll.htm"]THE SYLLABUS OF ERRORS CONDEMNED BY PIUS IX[/url]

Some of the relevant errors:

[quote]

20. The ecclesiastical power ought not to exercise its authority without the permission and assent of the civil government. -- Allocution "Meminit unusquisque," Sept. 30, 1861.

39. The State, as being the origin and source of all rights, is endowed with a certain right not circumscribed by any limits. -- Allocution "Maxima quidem," June 9, 1862.

42. In the case of conflicting laws enacted by the two powers, the civil law prevails. -- Ibid.

44. The civil authority may interfere in matters relating to religion, morality and spiritual government: hence, it can pass judgment on the instructions issued for the guidance of consciences, conformably with their mission, by the pastors of the Church. Further, it has the right to make enactments regarding the administration of the divine sacraments, and the dispositions necessary for receiving them. -- Allocutions "In consistoriali," Nov. 1, 1850, and "Maxima quidem," June 9, 1862.

47. The best theory of civil society requires that popular schools open to children of every class of the people, and, generally, all public institutes intended for instruction in letters and philosophical sciences and for carrying on the education of youth, should be freed from all ecclesiastical authority, control and interference, and should be fully subjected to the civil and political power at the pleasure of the rulers, and according to the standard of the prevalent opinions of the age. -- Epistle to the Archbishop of Freiburg, "Cum non sine," July 14, 1864.

55. The Church ought to be separated from the State, and the State from the Church. -- Allocution "Acerbissimum," Sept. 27, 1852.

60. Authority is nothing else but numbers and the sum total of material forces. -- Ibid.

77. In the present day it is no longer expedient that the Catholic religion should be held as the only religion of the State, to the exclusion of all other forms of worship. -- Allocution "Nemo vestrum," July 26, 1855.

79. Moreover, it is false that the civil liberty of every form of worship, and the full power, given to all, of overtly and publicly manifesting any opinions whatsoever and thoughts, conduce more easily to corrupt the morals and minds of the people, and to propagate the pest of indifferentism. -- Allocution "Nunquam fore," Dec. 15, 1856.
[/quote]

It seems obvious that the US democracy is subject to many of these errors.

[guardsman]

[quote name='philothea' date='May 9 2005, 12:26 AM'][url="http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9syll.htm"]THE SYLLABUS OF ERRORS CONDEMNED BY PIUS IX[/url]

Some of the relevant errors:



It seems obvious that the US democracy is subject to many of these errors.[/quote]
Excuse me? It doesn't seem at all obvious to me that the U.S. is subject to any errors. As a matter of fact, all those quotes seemed to support what goes on in the U.S. You're confusing me.

[philothea]

[quote name='guardsman' date='May 9 2005, 12:46 AM'] Excuse me? It doesn't seem at all obvious to me that the U.S. is subject to any errors. As a matter of fact, all those quotes seemed to support what goes on in the U.S. You're confusing me. [/quote]
The statements are ERRORS.

The pope is saying that delaring the above things true is WRONG.

[guardsman]

[quote name='philothea' date='May 9 2005, 12:55 AM'] The statements are ERRORS.

The pope is saying that delaring the above things true is WRONG. [/quote]
Oh. Gee, I feel stupid about now.

[philothea]

It's okay. I got all confused when I read it at first too.

And then when I realized, a kind of overwhelming "Aw, carp..."

Edited May 9, 2005 by philothea

[Ordo.Teutonicorum]

That just goes to prove my theory that America is evil. I long for the days when you could escape the civil government by fleeing into the house of God and clinging to the altar.