infinitelord1 Posted May 9, 2005 Share Posted May 9, 2005 [quote name='Don John of Austria' date='May 8 2005, 09:23 PM'] Actually lying is always sinful, saying " there are know jews here is sinful as that is directly lying and as Christians we are obliged to defend the Truth. However it would be permissable not to give information but not to actively lye. So you could say " you can come in and look around..." knowing that the Jews where hidden well, but you are not supposed to directly lie even to the enemy. [/quote] so who is wrong here Don John? Me and You or the catechism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted May 9, 2005 Share Posted May 9, 2005 [quote name='Don John of Austria' date='May 8 2005, 09:23 PM'] Actually lying is always sinful, saying " there are know jews here is sinful as that is directly lying and as Christians we are obliged to defend the Truth. However it would be permissable not to give information but not to actively lye. So you could say " you can come in and look around..." knowing that the Jews where hidden well, but you are not supposed to directly lie even to the enemy. [/quote] Gotcha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted May 9, 2005 Share Posted May 9, 2005 [quote name='guardsman' date='May 8 2005, 09:27 PM'] Yeah. Are you about to quote something to put me in my place? It's my belief, or I wouldn't have typed it. But if I'm wrong, I bow to the Magesterium. [/quote] I will respect ur beliefs and consider them for my own. I just wanted to distinguish belief from fact thats all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guardsman Posted May 9, 2005 Share Posted May 9, 2005 How on earth could anyone think lying to protect innocent life is a sin? Show me one Bible reference that says lying to protect innocent life is a sin. No one can, because it isn't in the Bible. Jesus calls us to do all we can to protect those who cannot defend themselves. That's what charity means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted May 9, 2005 Share Posted May 9, 2005 [quote name='infinitelord1' date='May 8 2005, 09:27 PM'] so who is wrong here Don John? Me and You or the catechism? [/quote] I don't believe I am in conflict with the Catachism, I would like a referance to the paragraph before I respond to that question. The Tradition of the Church falls along the line I am saying, St. Thomas has a whole discussion on wether it is okay to lay ambush and this is the pivotal distinction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guardsman Posted May 9, 2005 Share Posted May 9, 2005 [quote name='infinitelord1' date='May 8 2005, 09:28 PM'] I will respect ur beliefs and consider them for my own. I just wanted to distinguish belief from fact thats all. [/quote] Sorry, I misunderstood what you meant when you said "is this your belief." I took it as confrontational and I was wrong. It is just my belief, not official Church teaching, as far as I know, but most of the time I find that my beliefs square with Church teaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted May 9, 2005 Share Posted May 9, 2005 [quote name='guardsman' date='May 8 2005, 09:36 PM'] How on earth could anyone think lying to protect innocent life is a sin? Show me one Bible reference that says lying to protect innocent life is a sin. No one can, because it isn't in the Bible. Jesus calls us to do all we can to protect those who cannot defend themselves. That's what charity means. [/quote] lying is a sin, it is a violation of the Truth which is a violation of Christ. Sometimes we are called upon to suffer for the Truth, sometime we are called to Die for it. If your life is threatened your culpability might be mitigated but culpible or not it is still a sinful act. [quote]Jesus calls us to do all we can to protect those who cannot defend themselves.[/quote] I agree completly. So when did you last plug an abortionist in the head? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philothea Posted May 9, 2005 Share Posted May 9, 2005 CCC 1753: [quote] A good intention (for example, that of helping one's neighbor) does not make behavior that is intrinsically disordered, such as lying and calumny, good or just. the end does not justify the means. Thus the condemnation of an innocent person cannot be justified as a legitimate means of saving the nation. On the other hand, an added bad intention (such as vainglory) makes an act evil that, in and of itself, can be good (such as almsgiving) [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guardsman Posted May 9, 2005 Share Posted May 9, 2005 [quote name='Don John of Austria' date='May 8 2005, 09:43 PM'] I agree completly. So when did you last plug an abortionist in the head? [/quote] Dude, I'm a member of Priests For Life, but they don't want us to do that. Fr. Frank is pro-life, not pro-murder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guardsman Posted May 9, 2005 Share Posted May 9, 2005 [quote name='Don John of Austria' date='May 8 2005, 09:43 PM'] lying is a sin, it is a violation of the Truth which is a violation of Christ. Sometimes we are called upon to suffer for the Truth, sometime we are called to Die for it. If your life is threatened your culpability might be mitigated but culpible or not it is still a sinful act. [/quote] I'd like to see some Scriptural support for this statement. Or Church support, whatever. I mean lying to protect innocent life. I doubt Scriptures or Church documents will say there is anything wrong with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted May 9, 2005 Share Posted May 9, 2005 [quote name='philothea' date='May 8 2005, 09:53 PM'] CCC 1753: [/quote] Okay so that say's exactly what I am saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philothea Posted May 9, 2005 Share Posted May 9, 2005 (edited) [quote name='Don John of Austria' date='May 8 2005, 09:19 PM'] Actually all democracies which seperate Church and State have been Condemned, Offically and with the Authority of the Pope as Pope by Pius IX this includes american democracy. [/quote] Yeah, I found that when I was researching Americanism and the appropriateness of patriotism. That condemnation interesting, and not very well known. Edited May 9, 2005 by philothea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted May 9, 2005 Share Posted May 9, 2005 [quote name='guardsman' date='May 8 2005, 09:56 PM'] Dude, I'm a member of Priests For Life, but they don't want us to do that. Fr. Frank is pro-life, not pro-murder. [/quote] Killing the Guilty to defend the innocent is not murder, but that is a topic for another Thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted May 9, 2005 Share Posted May 9, 2005 [quote name='guardsman' date='May 8 2005, 09:59 PM'] I'd like to see some Scriptural support for this statement. Or Church support, whatever. I mean lying to protect innocent life. I doubt Scriptures or Church documents will say there is anything wrong with it. [/quote] [url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/304003.htm"]here[/url] Read this St. Thomas on laying ambushes, if you don't see the correlation after reading it r if that isn't good enough I'll look some more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philothea Posted May 9, 2005 Share Posted May 9, 2005 [quote name='Don John of Austria' date='May 8 2005, 10:00 PM'] Okay so that say's exactly what I am saying. [/quote] Yep. It does initially seem unreasonable, but what else could the Church do? Give conditional permission to do wrong, and let people guess at bad vs. worse for themselves? Asking for huge trouble that way. No, we're supposed to be perfect. Even though that can seem impossible. (Sigh.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now