Existance of God

[CatholicAndFanatical]

well how did we become smarter than them?

How did that slim chose to give us creativity and not the beavers?

[Didacus]

[quote name='CatholicAndFanatical' date='May 10 2005, 05:22 PM']Out of all the animals in the world, from ants to lions to elephants to dogs and cats. We are the only one that can create things, evolve, think, have compassion, have common sense, have the ability to think through a problem, have the conscience to be conscience.

[snip]

  Sounds like a much more intelligent design to me.[/quote]

Have you ever seen the old clicher of a mouse running through a maze. They demonstrate limited creativity by being able to solve a 'life problem' by sucessfully solving different mazes of different complexity. They can learn the mazes patterns and so forth.

It would be difficult to explain the massive complexity of the ants co-operation within their 'society' by instinct alone. And if it could be done, it would be for the least a fantastic example of instinct. Did you know bees can 'communicate' with one another through the exchange of chemicals? With this communication they can discern locations of pollen and notify their peers to either follow them or head in a general direction that will reep benefits for the hive.

There is proof that certain primates other than humans have self-awareness.

If you place a gorilla before a mirror, the gorilla looking into the mirror will know that he is looking at itself. Proof is that the gorilla will make use of the mirror, and pick his teeth or groom itself.

Other primates, less evolved, will look at the mirror and attack it constantly, reacting instinctively in defense of their territory. Even though the mirror may be there for years, throughout the primate’s life they will never come to the realization that the image in the mirror is an image of themselves - thus they are unable to attain a state of self-awareness.

Studies of primates show clear affection between mothers and siblings, and between siblings themselves in a similar manner, indicating that through self-awareness, gorillas not only gain awareness of themselves but of others as well.


Now, I am in no way saying that gorillas are our equals and that they deserve the same rights, and have souls and ect... To tell you the truth, I am uncertain what to make of this evidence. What if humanity was to endure another 1 000 000 years and the gorillas evolved into another intelligence similar to our own - what then? Would we tell them the bible says they are mortal and cannot be saved because they have no souls? Or tell them that Jesus loves them and even though they where not awake when he walked the earth, He came for them also?

Better question yet, what if they formed their own religion based on their own enlightment, different than ours?

Fortunately, we probably have even more than 1 000 000 years to think about that one, unless a gorilla gets elected president in the near future (which is not that much of a long shot when you think about it).

[CatholicAndFanatical]

[quote name='Didacus' date='May 12 2005, 01:28 PM']
Have you ever seen the old clicher of a mouse running through a maze.  They demonstrate limited creativity by being able to solve a 'life problem' by sucessfully solving different mazes of different complexity.  They can learn the mazes patterns and so forth.

It would be difficult to explain the massive complexity of the ants co-operation within their 'society' by instinct alone.  And if it could be done, it would be for the least a fantastic example of instinct.  Did you know bees can 'communicate' with one another through the exchange of chemicals?  With this communication they can discern locations of pollen and notify their peers to either follow them or head in a general direction that will reep benefits for the hive.

There is proof that certain primates other than humans have self-awareness.

If you place a gorilla before a mirror, the gorilla looking into the mirror will know that he is looking at itself.  Proof is that the gorilla will make use of the mirror, and pick his teeth or groom itself.

Other primates, less evolved, will look at the mirror and attack it constantly, reacting instinctively in defense of their territory.  Even though the mirror may be there for years, throughout the primate’s life they will never come to the realization that the image in the mirror is an image of themselves - thus they are unable to attain a state of self-awareness.

Studies of primates show clear affection between mothers and siblings, and between siblings themselves in a similar manner, indicating that through self-awareness, gorillas not only gain awareness of themselves but of others as well.


Now, I am in no way saying that gorillas are our equals and that they deserve the same rights, and have souls and ect...  To tell you the truth, I am uncertain what to make of this evidence.  What if humanity was to endure another 1 000 000 years and the gorillas evolved into another intelligence similar to our own - what then?  Would we tell them the bible says they are mortal and cannot be saved because they have no souls?  Or tell them that Jesus loves them and even though they where not awake when he walked the earth, He came for them also?

Better question yet, what if they formed their own religion based on their own enlightment, different than ours?

Fortunately, we probably have even more than 1 000 000 years to think about that one, unless a gorilla gets elected president in the near future (which is not that much of a long shot when you think about it). [/quote]
very good post didacus and you made some great points. I for one forgot about those things you mentioned. Yes I knew about the bees and ants and how they can communicate and how Gorilla's perform under certain circumstances.

So what is to become of this information? This is almost the same argument my athiest friends use when disproving God.

I understand fully with what you are saying, and cannot argue it.

But it still strikes me as how the slime that we came from, supposidly, gave each thing that came from it, a unique life. From ants to birds they are different. But yet supposidly created the same way.

I've heard Atheists claim that we came from small organisms that were here when the earth was created. How did those organisms get created to begin with?

I know I ask too many questions, and may go in circles. But I am trying to find a way to show that God is real and He loves us. By showing that there is an 'Intelligent Design' in creation, should shatter the myth that we came from slime or tiny organisms billions of years ago.

I dont know about you Didacus, about whether you are a Christian or not, but I would like to have some athiests point of view on this, or even the evolutionists opinion as well.

Of course I'll need the help of fellow Catholics so dont leave me hanging.

This is all for the greater glory of God. My goal is to eventually break down the athiest wall that surround my two friends. Yes im praying for them but the wall is thick and needs more. Which is why im asking for dialog tips.


God Bless,

Edited May 12, 2005 by CatholicAndFanatical

[Didacus]

[quote name='CatholicAndFanatical' date='May 12 2005, 02:18 PM'] [snip]

  This is all for the greater glory of God. My goal is to eventually break down the athiest wall that surround my two friends. Yes im praying for them but the wall is thick and needs more. Which is why im asking for dialog tips.


  God Bless,[/quote]


*blush* I don’t do very well with compliments. thank you.

About me; Roman Catholic, fervent believer, very knowledgeable on several fields of science (professional engineer).

Believe me, I feel for you my friend. I remember my university days, and boy that was frustrating. Questions being asked to me where of the type:

"How the h*** can you be smart and believe in fairy tales?"

or smirk remarks of the sort

"Easy answers aren't for me. I deal with real life, real problems and forgive me for being mature enough not to indulge in your dream world."


**AARRRGGHHH** just remembering it is enough to get me steaming. I found myself several times being isolated in my classes and study groups whenever the discussion turned to religion or God - and I barely said anything if anything at all. All I had to do was say that I was Catholic and that I believed and presto - I was a laughing matter.


First advice I can give you, and it might sound strange, but I think it has some very real merit. Don't enter the discussion thinking or hoping that you will change their views - that is near impossible. Technically speaking you are fighting an un-winnable bout.

Besides, it is God's will to reveal Himself to each in His way, we can help, but the bottom line is between Him and the people to whom you speak.


next, the only argument that I have found that REALLY stumps these Atheists is this:

"Proof of God is found in the fact that I am sentient. I have knowledge of my thoughts, a.k.a. I know therefore I am. To believe that God does not exist is the equivalent to believing that I am the ONLY being in the universe who has attained sentience."


Such an opening statement will start a discussion specific to the subject, and evolution/science can explain many things, but nothing within it can explain sentience adequately - not even philosophy. The best that atheist can do versus this argument is reply with circular logic... much like many who try to argue the existence of God. This turns the 'breaking' of the circular reference in their court - THEY now have the burden of proof rather than yourself.
(if you think about it clearly, and honestly, that last sentence is true)

You have to take care in how to define sentience. Other terms can apply such as conscience, self-awareness might help but is more susceptible to scientific argumentation. Make it clear that whatever term you use includes emotions, a innate concept of good/evil, knowledge of personal pain and pain of others.

Argumentation can get a little complex, and depends a great deal on your audience of course. One that I used in the university circles was the Chaos Theory.

The Chaos theory states that should the initial conditions of a system be known, all that comes thereafter can be determined there-from. Thus, in a Godless universe, the presets being fully determined, everything that happens in the universe is conceivably calculable. And this be the case, then a right to choose disappears (Shakespeare often explored such pre-determination questions in his plays!). But the person to whom you speak HAS a right to choose, because this person is sentient. Having the right to choose, is the power to change the initial calculable outcome according to the chaos theory. Thus according to science, such a thing as 'free-will' and 'power of choice' could not possibly exist - everything is pre-determined from initial conditions, right? The Chaos theory thus is blown away and the proof lies in the intelligence of the person to whom you speak. For this person to deny or rebuttal the argument, the person would first have to admit not being sentient - few are willing to do so.

And thus, science falls short of being able to explain sentience, even through evolution. The only unknown left to explain... is... you guessed it... God.

My second advice to you, is if you should run into comments of the sort that question your person because of your beliefs - walk away. Frustrating as it seems, the best thing to do is walk away. These people will give you nothing but grief, anger and frustrations and undermine your credibility while doing so. Believe me - been there, done that, over and over again SFD done that. These people generally have faith in themselves and nothing further, and sad to say but the only thing that will make them look further - is failure of their faith in themselves. This will happen when tragedy hits their lives, and I can't think of anything that else that does.

What was that saying again, "Notice that even the most hard-nosed atheist will call to God when falling on their knees." or something to that effect.



Hope I helped you more than confuse you. Don’t worry, I don't intend on going very far.


Smiles all around...

[Semalsia]

[quote name='CatholicAndFanatical']I've heard Atheists claim that we came from small organisms that were here when the earth was created. How did those organisms get created to begin with?
[/quote]

I doubt the atheists called them "creations". But anyway, the birth of life is not fully known yet, but it started with simple things. Self replicating molecules or groups of molecules or something like that. I'm not sure that should be called life, but since it's replicating itself it will get more complex via evolution. You'll have RNA then DNA and then cells. And eventually you'll have big organisms.

[quote]well how did we become smarter than them?[/quote]

By chance.

[quote]By showing that there is an 'Intelligent Design' in creation[/quote]

You can't do that, since there is no design found in species.

[quote]But I am trying to find a way to show that God is real and He loves us. [/quote]

Well good luck with that. Both of them.

Edited May 12, 2005 by Semalsia

[Semalsia]

[quote]"Proof of God is found in the fact that I am sentient. I have knowledge of my thoughts, a.k.a. I know therefore I am. To believe that God does not exist is the equivalent to believing that I am the ONLY being in the universe who has attained sentience."[/quote]

Wow. That made absolutely no sense.

Those two things are not equivalent. Besides, you have just made your god into a natural being who doesn't have the infinite attributes.

[quote]"Notice that even the most hard-nosed atheist will call to God when falling on their knees."[/quote]

Funny.

[CatholicAndFanatical]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='May 12 2005, 04:31 PM']






[/quote]
[quote]
By chance.
[/quote]

thats a cop out answer. Nothing is 'by chance'.

Some would have you believe that our universe was created 'by chance' until the telescope proved that there are millions of other universes like our..so it wasnt by chance that our universe was made, its happened all around and is still happening.

But whats making it happen?


[quote]
You can't do that, since there is no design found in species.
[/quote]

Sure there is. Everything has a design to it. But that slime didnt give it to them. Our defenses, structure of our bodies, skin and brain show we have a design. Animals as well have a design to them. Made specifically for whatever area they live in. A lion is 'Designed' to live in a desert environment and feed off meat for instance.


[quote]
Well good luck with that. Both of them.
[/quote]

Some people, like my two friends, agree that there cannot be two rights. Truth is absolute and therefore one person has to be wrong. The objective reality and the subjective reality must be one or there are problems. And the reality is there is a God. Why would one have to 'see' God in order to believe in Him?

Why is it so difficult to believe in something that produces such good fruit?

Take my two friends for instance, and im not passing any judgement, just truthful observations.

1. Imaptient, constantly bickering about something they dont like
2. Restlessness, never satisfied or always putting down someone whos happy
3. Cusses almost every other word
4. Feels no sympathy for people, they have no heart when it comes to other people not their family. Terry Schiavo was a good example, instead of seeing how wrong it was to let her die, they spent their time talking about the Government, particularly Republicans, and how wrong they are about stepping in.
5. Constantly bickering and fighting with each other (Their brothers) about the stupidest stuff.
6. Disrespects almost everyone they talk to..except us programmers of course.
7. Says that all Christians need their heads checked and should be put away. especially far right wing Christians.


One of my two friends was wanting to help me with a piece of software im developing so that we can be in business together. But if he cant have sympathy for another human being, why on earth would I want to do business with him?


Ok, so compare my two friends here with a [b]TRUE[/b] Christian. Someone truely living the Faith like Mother Teresa, John Paul II, Bishop Sheen and countless other people and you tell me which way is the right way.


If you are an Athiest, I challenge you to look deep inside yourself and ask if you are truely happy. Not just materialistic happy, but soul deep, heart burning happy. Ask yourself if you are afraid to die and if you are, why?

I thank you for posting on this issue. I in no way mean to attack to put down, im happy opinions are here. This helps me tremendously. The arguments I put here are the same arguments I use on my two friends. I improve when someone breaks my argument, this forces me to come up with another one.

God Bless

Edited May 12, 2005 by CatholicAndFanatical

[Curt F.]

Why would an Atheist not be happy? To be honest, if I was a Christian, I would be miserable. I can't imagine believing in something so horrid as a hell. If you're an Atheist, it just ends. It just makes so much more sense to me. I can't imagine there being a heaven and just nothing beyond it.

[Didacus]

[quote name='CatholicAndFanatical' date='May 12 2005, 04:20 PM']

thats a cop out answer. Nothing is 'by chance'.

  God Bless[/quote]

"God does not play dice with the universe."
Albert Einstein

[CatholicAndFanatical]

[quote name='Curt F.' date='May 12 2005, 10:20 PM'] Why would an Atheist not be happy? To be honest, if I was a Christian, I would be miserable. I can't imagine believing in something so horrid as a hell. If you're an Atheist, it just ends. It just makes so much more sense to me. I can't imagine there being a heaven and just nothing beyond it. [/quote]
Honestly Curt if that is the mindset then of course you're going to get it wrong.

Its not about rules and breaking them or following them. Its about knowing the Jesus died so that we can be with Him in Heaven. Its about living your life for the one who created you and loves you and created you BECAUSE He loves you.

What do you have to lose in believing? If you are right, and there is no God..so what! You lived a good life, helped others for a good cause and not for your own good but out of the good of your heart. You stood for something legit and honorable.

But if you are wrong. And I know you are, about God not existing. Then you will have to spend Eternity for that mistake. Eternity!

How long is Eternity?

From the words of the great Priest Father Larry Richards:

Eternity is a man who takes 10,000 years to take a step. So to take two steps it took him 20,000 years to do so.
This man goes and grabs One grain of sand then slowly, 10,000 years a step, walks up Mount St Helens.
Then when he reachs the top, millions of years has passed, he drops that grain of sand off the top of the mountain. Then slowly, 10,000 years a step walks back down the mountain and picks up another grain of sand. Again, 10,000 years a step walks back up and does it again.

When this man does every grain of sand in every ocean, in every desert, in every crevice..he's done it ALL.

Eternity would have just begun.

So what we do on earth in this 'blink of an eye' of time we have is very important.

Why fight it? God is there, and He is calling your name and brought you here. Which im glad you are here.


Atheists cannot be happy because they have this constant restlessness within them. its there whether they admit it or not.

I urge you to look up some Miracles that have occured all over the World, all the time. Especially the Eucharist maricles.

Science cant explain them, thats why they are miracles. And not just Catholic Scientists have studied them, Athiest ones too.

St. Padre Pio is a good example. His doctor was an Athiest until seeing some of the miracles he performed and the awesomeness in this man thanks to God. He came home to the Church and to God.

Research, Study and Ask. The door is opening for you.


God Bless

[Didacus]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='May 12 2005, 03:50 PM']
Wow. That made absolutely no sense.

[/quote]
Look at it this way;

If you believe there is no God, then this is the situation:

The universe is a system. The initial conditions in a system can be defined to every consequential detail. There are no physical quanitites that cannot be quantified.

Once the system is defined, the initial conditions known, through the universe's parameters (physical laws, chemistry, ect...) everything can thus be calculated and known in any future state - this is amongst the most basic founding principals behind ANY scientific equation.

Now if the universe is thus defineable and ultimately predictable and known in every future state, then everything surrounding you (being part of the universe) is nothing more than physical matter and energy responding to these scientific laws... nothing more. Within the entire universe, the only fragment of matter that has at all gained self-awareness... is you Semalsia, no one else (assuming you agree you are self-aware).

The rest of the 'people' with whom you interact CANNOT be self-aware because they are simply matter reacting to the physical laws of the universe. No matter what is said, no matter the interaction, all the people you have ever met are simply an arrangement of atoms and sub-atomic particles inter-acting between one-another to the result of a physical body predictably reacting to your presence.

If you accept that a single being other than yourself has self-awareness, then this being can choose to change the once predictable path of the universe. Thus science does not hold any meaning.

Intelligence, the power of thougth, cannot be quantified, cannot be defined in a scientific manner within a universal system such that outcomes can be known. Therefore it cannot form the basis of an original, defineable system. Furthermore, since it is not part of the original system, nor can it be defined, it cannot evolve (or form itself through evolution).

The only plausible explanation once science ultimately fails, is that there is a presence, outside the defined system (remember, the system is the entire universe), and this presence affects the model/system as defined. This presence contains that which was not part of the original system definition, hence, this presence is self-aware.

This external presence... is God. Say hello if you will, He's listening.


If you want a specific example, then consider this;

The day a human being walked out of a cave and realized he/she was naked, knew that they where hungry, and that they where living. At that very moment, the laws of evolution no longer applied themselves to humanity. They no longer applied because humankind at that point in time gained a choice, and with this choice could choose contrary to the laws of nature and evolution. Hence, could choose suicide, rape, killing for pleasure rather than survival, murder and other... Those who carry on the human race, especially today, are no longer those who are necessarily the fittest in the pure sense of evolution - someone with a perfect set of genes can be murdered out of jealousy or fear (Jesus on the cross?).




Or course, there are 2 important premisses in what I just cited above which can form grounds of debate:

1. The universe at time 0 (the big bang!), was not self-aware
2. Sefl-awareness cannot evolve from the universe surrounding us since everything is predictable


Are you familliar with Plato's "ALLEGORY OF THE CAVE"?

"And now shall we consider in what way such guardians will be produced, and how they are to be brought from darkness to light, --as some are said to have ascended from the world below to the gods?

- By all means, he replied.

The process, I said, is not the turning over of an oyster-shell, but the turning round of a soul passing from a day which is little better than night to the true day of being, that is, the ascent from below, which we affirm to be true philosophy.

And should we not inquire what sort of knowledge has the power of effecting such a change?

-Quite so. "



A quick google search or two and I am certain you will find the entire Plato's text. It is a very fascinating outlook, and puts into perspective several things I advanced above. If you are not familiar with it, I strongly recommend you look it up. Nothing like 2500years old reading to spice up an extended tenure in the bathroom!

[Semalsia]

[quote name='CatholicAndFanatical']thats a cop out answer. Nothing is 'by chance'.[/quote]

Well, you just believe that.

[quote]A lion is 'Designed' to live in a desert environment and feed off meat for instance.[/quote]

Species work, but in no way do they have intelligent design in them. If they had been designed by someone, then their "design" would not be so bad.

The lion isn't designed, it has adapted to its enviroment.

[quote]And the reality is there is a God.[/quote]

Again, you just believe that, but you have no way of backing it up. I agree with your friends in that either God exists or He doesn't. Personal opinions don't matter on it.

[quote]Why is it so difficult to believe in something that produces such good fruit?[/quote]

What good fruit? All I see is havoc caused by this. Just look at the most recent gay thread.. people are up in arms against each other. And over what? Absolutely nothing.

[quote] Ok, so compare my two friends here with a TRUE Christian. Someone truely living the Faith like Mother Teresa, John Paul II, Bishop Sheen and countless other people and you tell me which way is the right way.[/quote]

That in no way proves that there actually is a god. I hope you are not really saying that no atheist ever is good to others.

What about Gandhi and the like?

[quote]If you are an Athiest, I challenge you to look deep inside yourself and ask if you are truely happy. Not just materialistic happy, but soul deep, heart burning happy. Ask yourself if you are afraid to die and if you are, why?[/quote]

I'm as happy as I can be. The reality is painful.

Of course I am afraid to die. This is because I know I will cease to exist when I die. I could not imagine a more horrible thing than death.

But tell me this, why are christians afraid to die? Why are they sad when others die? Why are they in pain when others die? Why is death a bad thing, if there is an afterlife? If they truly believed in their religion, then should not they be happy? They are in God's hands now, is it not time for joy? Why do they act like they have lost their dearest, if they know they will meet them in Heaven?

[quote]Its not about rules and breaking them or following them.[/quote]

It is exactly that. "Do this, don't do that... otherwise you'll burn in Hell".

[quote]What do you have to lose in believing? If you are right, and there is no God..so what! You lived a good life, helped others for a good cause and not for your own good but out of the good of your heart. You stood for something legit and honorable.[/quote]

"So what"?? Believing would mean turning my life upside down and then not even to be able to explain to [i]myself[/i] why. Good life? Being in constant fear is a good life? Oppressing others is good and honorable life?

Reading that gay protest thread just made me so angry. There's another good reason why I could never be a catholic.

[quote]But if you are wrong. And I know you are, about God not existing. Then you will have to spend Eternity for that mistake. Eternity![/quote]

For a [b]honest[/b] mistake! A loving God would punish those that are weak and not have been able to crack the "God puzzle" for just that weakness that He himself created them with?

If that is so, then I would rather burn in Hell than be in Heaven. Just as a protest.

[quote]Atheists cannot be happy because they have this constant restlessness within them. its there whether they admit it or not.[/quote]

Oh yeah, and you know the mind of every single atheist.

[quote]I thank you for posting on this issue. I in no way mean to attack to put down, im happy opinions are here. This helps me tremendously.[/quote]

Yea this helps me too.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='Didacus' date='May 13 2005, 08:14 AM'] Look at it this way;

If you believe there is no God, then this is the situation:

The universe is a system. The initial conditions in a system can be defined to every consequential detail. There are no physical quanitites that cannot be quantified.

Once the system is defined, the initial conditions known, through the universe's parameters (physical laws, chemistry, ect...) everything can thus be calculated and known in any future state - this is amongst the most basic founding principals behind ANY scientific equation.

Now if the universe is thus defineable and ultimately predictable and known in every future state, then everything surrounding you (being part of the universe) is nothing more than physical matter and energy responding to these scientific laws... nothing more. Within the entire universe, the only fragment of matter that has at all gained self-awareness... is you Semalsia, no one else (assuming you agree you are self-aware).

The rest of the 'people' with whom you interact CANNOT be self-aware because they are simply matter reacting to the physical laws of the universe. No matter what is said, no matter the interaction, all the people you have ever met are simply an arrangement of atoms and sub-atomic particles inter-acting between one-another to the result of a physical body predictably reacting to your presence.

If you accept that a single being other than yourself has self-awareness, then this being can choose to change the once predictable path of the universe. Thus science does not hold any meaning.
[/quote]
I have seen this being asserted time and time again. Essentially, it is stating that Atheism is a worldview that applies Deterministic principles. That to be Atheist, you must be a determinist and that you basicly act out of causation. The problem with that is that its not true whatsoever. Atheism is just a stance on belief, nothing more. No worldviews attached. One can be a deist and still be deterministic. To be deterministic implies that their exist no self in the brain. Right now we do not posses the technology to fully answer the question on whether the brain is acting out of causation or if it contains volition. At the worst , you could still hold to some deterministic philosophies and at the same time hold on to the idea of free will. Making you a compatibilist. The question here is do we posses consciousness. It has nothing to do with atheism.

[Semalsia]

[quote name='didacus']Once the system is defined, the initial conditions known[/quote]

Are you familiar with quantum mechanics? The initial conditions can not be known.

[quote]assuming you agree you are self-aware[/quote]

I don't know, you have kind of made me doubt that. Maybe we don't have free will.

[quote]all the people you have ever met are simply an arrangement of atoms and sub-atomic particles inter-acting between one-another to the result of a physical body predictably reacting to your presence.[/quote]

That's right. People are not random in their actions, they are quite predictable even.

[quote]At that very moment, the laws of evolution no longer applied themselves to humanity. They no longer applied because humankind at that point in time gained a choice, and with this choice could choose contrary to the laws of nature and evolution. Hence, could choose suicide, rape, killing for pleasure rather than survival, murder and other... Those who carry on the human race, especially today, are no longer those who are necessarily the fittest in the pure sense of evolution - someone with a perfect set of genes can be murdered out of jealousy or fear[/quote]

And what do you think the animals do? I think you have a twisted idea of what evolution is.

[quote]Are you familliar with Plato's "ALLEGORY OF THE CAVE"?[/quote]

Nope.

[Semalsia]

[quote name='Melchiselek'] To be deterministic implies that their exist no self in the brain.[/quote]

Well obviously there is a self, but as obviously I don't think we are entirely free in our thinking. But it matters not... we seem to have free will and that is enough.

[Didacus]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='May 13 2005, 09:20 AM'] Atheism is just a stance on belief, nothing more. No worldviews attached. One can be a deist and still be deterministic. [/quote]
Please specify the stance of beliefs of the atheism.

What I am projecting is that deterministic approach does not hold the scrutiny of science.

I move to say that if you do not believe in God you inevitably are deterministic.

And yes, even the catholic religion went through several centuries where the deterministic dogma was dominant.

[Didacus]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='May 13 2005, 09:35 AM'] Are you familiar with quantum mechanics? The initial conditions can not be known. [/quote]
Have you heard of the first and second law of thermodynamics?

"Classical thermodynamics is the only physical theory of universal content concerning which I am convinced that, within the framework of its basic concepts, it will never be overthrown"

Albert Einstein


I suggest you re-visit the thoeries of quantum physics my friend, you seem to misunderstand somehting of the universe and its workings.

Oh wait, there's more (just in case you don't like Einstein):

"This law is considered the most powerful and most fundamental generalization about the universe that scientists have ever been able to make."
Isaac Asimov on the laws of thermodynamics





"You cannot fudge this by appealing to quantum mechanics. Either there is nothing to begin with, in which case there is no quantum vacuum, no pre-geometric dust, no time in which anything can happen, no physical laws that can effect a change from nothingness into somethingness; or there is something, in which case that needs explaining.”

David Darling while giving explanation on the laws of thermodynamics.

Want more? I can give you hundreds such quotes from prominent physiciens and the likes. Quantum physics[color=purple][font="Geneva"] does not [/color][/font]overthrow thermodynamics, and the logic I pose is one of a system base with determined limitsf and quanitites, hence a thermodynamic base model.

Edited May 13, 2005 by Didacus

[Didacus]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='May 13 2005, 09:35 AM']

That's right. People are not random in their actions, they are quite predictable even.

[/quote]
So I am no more important to you than a monkey eating a banana in the jungle? Or a sub-atomic aprticle travelling towards the sun at the speed of light?

How little value you must give to those closest to you if you see them as just animals without soul for pain or relief. What are they to you, entertainment value? A 'real live' television?

[Didacus]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='May 13 2005, 09:35 AM']

And what do you think the animals do? I think you have a twisted idea of what evolution is.

[/quote]
Animal kill in order to survive. to eat or not be eaten. They do not murder, kill for pleasure or just up and save a goat's life because they feel it is the right thing to do.

A twisted idea of evolution? hmmmm
Please show me how my ideas are perversed? I agree fully with the thoery of evolution, I simply cannot accept that theory as applicable to free will. Free will has the will to contradict the theory, thus how can it possibly be included in the theory? If you see how this can be achieved, please illustrate.

[Didacus]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='May 13 2005, 09:35 AM']

Nope. [/quote]
You should look it up. Seriously.

A piece of litterature does not survive over 2 000 years without having some value and merit. I am certain you will find it illuminating on several levels.