Existance of God

[Didacus]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='May 12 2005, 03:50 PM']
Wow. That made absolutely no sense.

[/quote]
Look at it this way;

If you believe there is no God, then this is the situation:

The universe is a system. The initial conditions in a system can be defined to every consequential detail. There are no physical quanitites that cannot be quantified.

Once the system is defined, the initial conditions known, through the universe's parameters (physical laws, chemistry, ect...) everything can thus be calculated and known in any future state - this is amongst the most basic founding principals behind ANY scientific equation.

Now if the universe is thus defineable and ultimately predictable and known in every future state, then everything surrounding you (being part of the universe) is nothing more than physical matter and energy responding to these scientific laws... nothing more. Within the entire universe, the only fragment of matter that has at all gained self-awareness... is you Semalsia, no one else (assuming you agree you are self-aware).

The rest of the 'people' with whom you interact CANNOT be self-aware because they are simply matter reacting to the physical laws of the universe. No matter what is said, no matter the interaction, all the people you have ever met are simply an arrangement of atoms and sub-atomic particles inter-acting between one-another to the result of a physical body predictably reacting to your presence.

If you accept that a single being other than yourself has self-awareness, then this being can choose to change the once predictable path of the universe. Thus science does not hold any meaning.

Intelligence, the power of thougth, cannot be quantified, cannot be defined in a scientific manner within a universal system such that outcomes can be known. Therefore it cannot form the basis of an original, defineable system. Furthermore, since it is not part of the original system, nor can it be defined, it cannot evolve (or form itself through evolution).

The only plausible explanation once science ultimately fails, is that there is a presence, outside the defined system (remember, the system is the entire universe), and this presence affects the model/system as defined. This presence contains that which was not part of the original system definition, hence, this presence is self-aware.

This external presence... is God. Say hello if you will, He's listening.


If you want a specific example, then consider this;

The day a human being walked out of a cave and realized he/she was naked, knew that they where hungry, and that they where living. At that very moment, the laws of evolution no longer applied themselves to humanity. They no longer applied because humankind at that point in time gained a choice, and with this choice could choose contrary to the laws of nature and evolution. Hence, could choose suicide, rape, killing for pleasure rather than survival, murder and other... Those who carry on the human race, especially today, are no longer those who are necessarily the fittest in the pure sense of evolution - someone with a perfect set of genes can be murdered out of jealousy or fear (Jesus on the cross?).




Or course, there are 2 important premisses in what I just cited above which can form grounds of debate:

1. The universe at time 0 (the big bang!), was not self-aware
2. Sefl-awareness cannot evolve from the universe surrounding us since everything is predictable


Are you familliar with Plato's "ALLEGORY OF THE CAVE"?

"And now shall we consider in what way such guardians will be produced, and how they are to be brought from darkness to light, --as some are said to have ascended from the world below to the gods?

- By all means, he replied.

The process, I said, is not the turning over of an oyster-shell, but the turning round of a soul passing from a day which is little better than night to the true day of being, that is, the ascent from below, which we affirm to be true philosophy.

And should we not inquire what sort of knowledge has the power of effecting such a change?

-Quite so. "



A quick google search or two and I am certain you will find the entire Plato's text. It is a very fascinating outlook, and puts into perspective several things I advanced above. If you are not familiar with it, I strongly recommend you look it up. Nothing like 2500years old reading to spice up an extended tenure in the bathroom!

[Semalsia]

[quote name='CatholicAndFanatical']thats a cop out answer. Nothing is 'by chance'.[/quote]

Well, you just believe that.

[quote]A lion is 'Designed' to live in a desert environment and feed off meat for instance.[/quote]

Species work, but in no way do they have intelligent design in them. If they had been designed by someone, then their "design" would not be so bad.

The lion isn't designed, it has adapted to its enviroment.

[quote]And the reality is there is a God.[/quote]

Again, you just believe that, but you have no way of backing it up. I agree with your friends in that either God exists or He doesn't. Personal opinions don't matter on it.

[quote]Why is it so difficult to believe in something that produces such good fruit?[/quote]

What good fruit? All I see is havoc caused by this. Just look at the most recent gay thread.. people are up in arms against each other. And over what? Absolutely nothing.

[quote] Ok, so compare my two friends here with a TRUE Christian. Someone truely living the Faith like Mother Teresa, John Paul II, Bishop Sheen and countless other people and you tell me which way is the right way.[/quote]

That in no way proves that there actually is a god. I hope you are not really saying that no atheist ever is good to others.

What about Gandhi and the like?

[quote]If you are an Athiest, I challenge you to look deep inside yourself and ask if you are truely happy. Not just materialistic happy, but soul deep, heart burning happy. Ask yourself if you are afraid to die and if you are, why?[/quote]

I'm as happy as I can be. The reality is painful.

Of course I am afraid to die. This is because I know I will cease to exist when I die. I could not imagine a more horrible thing than death.

But tell me this, why are christians afraid to die? Why are they sad when others die? Why are they in pain when others die? Why is death a bad thing, if there is an afterlife? If they truly believed in their religion, then should not they be happy? They are in God's hands now, is it not time for joy? Why do they act like they have lost their dearest, if they know they will meet them in Heaven?

[quote]Its not about rules and breaking them or following them.[/quote]

It is exactly that. "Do this, don't do that... otherwise you'll burn in Hell".

[quote]What do you have to lose in believing? If you are right, and there is no God..so what! You lived a good life, helped others for a good cause and not for your own good but out of the good of your heart. You stood for something legit and honorable.[/quote]

"So what"?? Believing would mean turning my life upside down and then not even to be able to explain to [i]myself[/i] why. Good life? Being in constant fear is a good life? Oppressing others is good and honorable life?

Reading that gay protest thread just made me so angry. There's another good reason why I could never be a catholic.

[quote]But if you are wrong. And I know you are, about God not existing. Then you will have to spend Eternity for that mistake. Eternity![/quote]

For a [b]honest[/b] mistake! A loving God would punish those that are weak and not have been able to crack the "God puzzle" for just that weakness that He himself created them with?

If that is so, then I would rather burn in Hell than be in Heaven. Just as a protest.

[quote]Atheists cannot be happy because they have this constant restlessness within them. its there whether they admit it or not.[/quote]

Oh yeah, and you know the mind of every single atheist.

[quote]I thank you for posting on this issue. I in no way mean to attack to put down, im happy opinions are here. This helps me tremendously.[/quote]

Yea this helps me too.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='Didacus' date='May 13 2005, 08:14 AM'] Look at it this way;

If you believe there is no God, then this is the situation:

The universe is a system. The initial conditions in a system can be defined to every consequential detail. There are no physical quanitites that cannot be quantified.

Once the system is defined, the initial conditions known, through the universe's parameters (physical laws, chemistry, ect...) everything can thus be calculated and known in any future state - this is amongst the most basic founding principals behind ANY scientific equation.

Now if the universe is thus defineable and ultimately predictable and known in every future state, then everything surrounding you (being part of the universe) is nothing more than physical matter and energy responding to these scientific laws... nothing more. Within the entire universe, the only fragment of matter that has at all gained self-awareness... is you Semalsia, no one else (assuming you agree you are self-aware).

The rest of the 'people' with whom you interact CANNOT be self-aware because they are simply matter reacting to the physical laws of the universe. No matter what is said, no matter the interaction, all the people you have ever met are simply an arrangement of atoms and sub-atomic particles inter-acting between one-another to the result of a physical body predictably reacting to your presence.

If you accept that a single being other than yourself has self-awareness, then this being can choose to change the once predictable path of the universe. Thus science does not hold any meaning.
[/quote]
I have seen this being asserted time and time again. Essentially, it is stating that Atheism is a worldview that applies Deterministic principles. That to be Atheist, you must be a determinist and that you basicly act out of causation. The problem with that is that its not true whatsoever. Atheism is just a stance on belief, nothing more. No worldviews attached. One can be a deist and still be deterministic. To be deterministic implies that their exist no self in the brain. Right now we do not posses the technology to fully answer the question on whether the brain is acting out of causation or if it contains volition. At the worst , you could still hold to some deterministic philosophies and at the same time hold on to the idea of free will. Making you a compatibilist. The question here is do we posses consciousness. It has nothing to do with atheism.

[Semalsia]

[quote name='didacus']Once the system is defined, the initial conditions known[/quote]

Are you familiar with quantum mechanics? The initial conditions can not be known.

[quote]assuming you agree you are self-aware[/quote]

I don't know, you have kind of made me doubt that. Maybe we don't have free will.

[quote]all the people you have ever met are simply an arrangement of atoms and sub-atomic particles inter-acting between one-another to the result of a physical body predictably reacting to your presence.[/quote]

That's right. People are not random in their actions, they are quite predictable even.

[quote]At that very moment, the laws of evolution no longer applied themselves to humanity. They no longer applied because humankind at that point in time gained a choice, and with this choice could choose contrary to the laws of nature and evolution. Hence, could choose suicide, rape, killing for pleasure rather than survival, murder and other... Those who carry on the human race, especially today, are no longer those who are necessarily the fittest in the pure sense of evolution - someone with a perfect set of genes can be murdered out of jealousy or fear[/quote]

And what do you think the animals do? I think you have a twisted idea of what evolution is.

[quote]Are you familliar with Plato's "ALLEGORY OF THE CAVE"?[/quote]

Nope.

[Semalsia]

[quote name='Melchiselek'] To be deterministic implies that their exist no self in the brain.[/quote]

Well obviously there is a self, but as obviously I don't think we are entirely free in our thinking. But it matters not... we seem to have free will and that is enough.

[Didacus]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='May 13 2005, 09:20 AM'] Atheism is just a stance on belief, nothing more. No worldviews attached. One can be a deist and still be deterministic. [/quote]
Please specify the stance of beliefs of the atheism.

What I am projecting is that deterministic approach does not hold the scrutiny of science.

I move to say that if you do not believe in God you inevitably are deterministic.

And yes, even the catholic religion went through several centuries where the deterministic dogma was dominant.

[Didacus]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='May 13 2005, 09:35 AM'] Are you familiar with quantum mechanics? The initial conditions can not be known. [/quote]
Have you heard of the first and second law of thermodynamics?

"Classical thermodynamics is the only physical theory of universal content concerning which I am convinced that, within the framework of its basic concepts, it will never be overthrown"

Albert Einstein


I suggest you re-visit the thoeries of quantum physics my friend, you seem to misunderstand somehting of the universe and its workings.

Oh wait, there's more (just in case you don't like Einstein):

"This law is considered the most powerful and most fundamental generalization about the universe that scientists have ever been able to make."
Isaac Asimov on the laws of thermodynamics





"You cannot fudge this by appealing to quantum mechanics. Either there is nothing to begin with, in which case there is no quantum vacuum, no pre-geometric dust, no time in which anything can happen, no physical laws that can effect a change from nothingness into somethingness; or there is something, in which case that needs explaining.”

David Darling while giving explanation on the laws of thermodynamics.

Want more? I can give you hundreds such quotes from prominent physiciens and the likes. Quantum physics[color=purple][font="Geneva"] does not [/color][/font]overthrow thermodynamics, and the logic I pose is one of a system base with determined limitsf and quanitites, hence a thermodynamic base model.

Edited May 13, 2005 by Didacus

[Didacus]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='May 13 2005, 09:35 AM']

That's right. People are not random in their actions, they are quite predictable even.

[/quote]
So I am no more important to you than a monkey eating a banana in the jungle? Or a sub-atomic aprticle travelling towards the sun at the speed of light?

How little value you must give to those closest to you if you see them as just animals without soul for pain or relief. What are they to you, entertainment value? A 'real live' television?

[Didacus]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='May 13 2005, 09:35 AM']

And what do you think the animals do? I think you have a twisted idea of what evolution is.

[/quote]
Animal kill in order to survive. to eat or not be eaten. They do not murder, kill for pleasure or just up and save a goat's life because they feel it is the right thing to do.

A twisted idea of evolution? hmmmm
Please show me how my ideas are perversed? I agree fully with the thoery of evolution, I simply cannot accept that theory as applicable to free will. Free will has the will to contradict the theory, thus how can it possibly be included in the theory? If you see how this can be achieved, please illustrate.

[Didacus]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='May 13 2005, 09:35 AM']

Nope. [/quote]
You should look it up. Seriously.

A piece of litterature does not survive over 2 000 years without having some value and merit. I am certain you will find it illuminating on several levels.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='Didacus' date='May 13 2005, 10:48 AM']



And yes, even the catholic religion went through several centuries where the deterministic dogma was dominant.[/quote]
[quote]Please specify the stance of beliefs of the atheism.[/quote]

Atheism simply means 'without' theistic beliefs. You can be a buddhist and be an atheist. You can be a raelian (belief that aliens created humans) and be an atheist. The indivuals stance is a relative one. It in no way implies a worldview.

[quote]
I move to say that if you do not believe in God you inevitably are deterministic.[/quote]

That contradicts what you said about Catholics in the past holding to a deterministic view. If not believing in God is deterministic, than how can believing in God be equally as deterministic? Like I said before, you can be a deist and be a determinist, not believing in a God does not at all require determinism. Even than you havent address the compatbilist argument. All you want to do is paint a bleak picture of robotic atheist. Inject God, and poof, you all of a sudden have free will. Its laughable.

[Didacus]

I never said that believing in God forced you to be un-deterministic. There is no contradiction, you make a [color=green]vise-versa [/color]assumption of my statement.

Religions that have or had deterministic point of views claim so by the will of God... i.e., everything is determined since God knows all, knows the future as well thus since the future is known of God, the future must be determined.

I do not share the deterministic point of view, .




[quote name='Melchisedec' date='May 13 2005, 11:10 AM']
Inject God, and poof, you all of a sudden have free will. Its laughable. [/quote]
Very well then, laugh.

Edited May 13, 2005 by Didacus

[CatholicAndFanatical]

[quote]
What good fruit? All I see is havoc caused by this. Just look at the most recent gay thread.. people are up in arms against each other. And over what? Absolutely nothing.
[/quote]

Without changing the topic too much I think you are misunderstanding what we are saying on that thread.

It is in no way an attack on homosexuals as a whole.

Its this particular groups actions we are protesting.

I guess since you dont believe in God you wouldnt understand. But I would hope that if you seen someone verbally assault your Father, and you knew that what they were doing was hurting your Father, you would stand up and do something. Not because the people are doing it are gay, but because they are doing things that hurt your Father.

Being gay is not a sin.

Living the gay lifestyle is the sin.

Just like if non married couples have sex..again..sin.

[CatholicAndFanatical]

[quote]
But tell me this, why are christians afraid to die? Why are they sad when others die? Why are they in pain when others die? Why is death a bad thing, if there is an afterlife? If they truly believed in their religion, then should not they be happy? They are in God's hands now, is it not time for joy? Why do they act like they have lost their dearest, if they know they will meet them in Heaven?
[/quote]

Im not sure we are afraid to die. Im not. I cant wait until Jesus comes back..this world bites!

We mourn for the lost ones mainly out of selfishness. We [b]hope[/b] they are in heaven, or at least purgatory in hopes to see them again one day.

One cannot truely say 'Sally is in heaven' or 'Joe bob was a nice guy so he must be in heaven'.

We mourn because they person we lost is missed. Again, its selfishness that leads us to this act. God chose that day to take them, I assume, so after we mourn we look to the time we see them again.

One of those idiot guys on Atheist Radio always says 'If you believe in heaven why do you wear a seat belt while driving..dont you want to die?'

See, this is a prime example of not knowing what the heck you are talking about.

God created us, God takes us away. We are not to do it prematurely by suicide or doing stupid things that may get us killed.

If God choses to take you, even a seatbelt wont save you.

Sure as Christians we want to go to heaven. But we cant take our own life in order to get there.

[quote]
For a honest mistake! A loving God would punish those that are weak and not have been able to crack the "God puzzle" for just that weakness that He himself created them with?

If that is so, then I would rather burn in Hell than be in Heaven. Just as a protest.
[/quote]

God doesnt send you to Hell my friend. You will do that yourself. And there is no God puzzle to it. God created a Church that we should follow. Listen to it and you'll be fine.

He is a loving God. He calls everyone to Him, even you, even now.

Why turn your life upside down to follow Him? Hand it over with Trust and he will hand you over a life you can live and strive in.


[quote]
Oh yeah, and you know the mind of every single atheist.
[/quote]

You are right, I dont. But I do know my two friends and how happy they [b]want[/b] to be, and pretend to be. But thier actions and range of emotions they give away at the slightest things tells me they are not internally happy.

But I also take into account my own experience. I guess I was never really an Atheist, but I spend my teenage years not giving God a thought. I remember how I felt at that time. I was having fun..but it was empty when I was alone. Something was missing. The things I was doing became stale and senseless. The lies of 'This makes me feel better' slowly showed their faces and I knew that what I was doing, the way I was living was wrong.

God started to call me when I was 18 or 19, driving down the road I had this strong urge to make the sign of the Cross. Had no idea why but after I did it, I thought it was the coolest feeling. But I didnt do it again.

It wasnt until I was 23 years old that I started fully desiring to be apart of God and I started to explore the Churchs that were around. I started with Pentecostal's because thats why I was so called raised in. I ended up at the Catholic Church.

My point is, as a teenager I lived the life of someone not believing in God or even caring. I was having too much fun. But it was a lie and I felt empty.

That empty feeling is what I associate with others that are in my position. Its hard to be happy when you have this empty feeling within you.

I hope this makes sense.

God Bless

[Didacus]

[quote name='CatholicAndFanatical' date='May 13 2005, 11:58 AM']
I hope this makes sense.

God Bless [/quote]
Aye, this makes sense. Make very good sense indeed.

Kudos.