subjective man, objective God?

[theculturewarrior]

I'm thinking of Semalsia when I write this, but I welcome everybody. A question that remains unanswered is, "what bearing does our subjectivity have on reality?"

Maybe I haven't been clear as to where I'm coming from.

To many people today, God simply "does not exist." Or "God is different for you, than he is for me." I've heard bizarre ideas about God coming from my own family, and just look at the diversity of opinion among Christians!

But really...what bearing does this have on God? How does a diversity of opinion change God one iota? How does a diversity of opinion make God "not exist?"

I imagine blindness when I think about this. The Christian goes through life with tinted glasses, and says..."see, the sky is pink!" The color-blind man looks at the sky and says, "I don't know what color that is, but it's not pink." And the blind man says, "there's no sky at all."

But none of this changes the color of the sky.

[cmotherofpirl]

Amen.
The sunshines even when we are in the dark.

Truth is objective.

[Semalsia]

[quote name='theculturewarrior']what bearing does our subjectivity have on reality?[/quote]

Nothing. But it makes everything we say about reality subjective.

[quote]How does a diversity of opinion make God "not exist?"[/quote]

It doesn't, but eats up on the credibility of those that claim God does exist.

[quote]But none of this changes the color of the sky.[/quote]

How can the blind man say anything about the color of the sky? He will stay oblivius forever.

[drewmeister2]

God still exists, regardless of what some may think. Just because athiests say He doesn't exist, doesn't make them right, either. God doesn't exist based on what man believes. Even if all the world except maybe a few people denied God, He would still exist.

I don't know, just some thoughts

Edited May 10, 2005 by drewmeister2

[infinitelord1]

to say that anything is objective or subjective you have to apply facts. In either case, you cant. It really boils down to beliefs. If you believe that there is a god........then ulitmately you will come to the conclusion that everything is objective. If you dont believe there is a god then morality becomes subjective and in the long run it doesnt even matter.

[theculturewarrior]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='May 9 2005, 10:29 PM']
How can the blind man say anything about the color of the sky? He will stay oblivius forever. [/quote]
I was blind once. But now I see the sky.


[quote]It doesn't, but eats up on the credibility of those that claim God does exist.
[/quote]

How does it compromise our credibility any more than somebody who says God doesn't exist?

[quote]Nothing. But it makes everything we say about reality subjective.[/quote]

"There is a sky." <--- Find the subjectivity.

[theculturewarrior]

Another question... what effect does our credibility have on God's existence?

[franciscanheart]

God is, was and always will be. We were made, created, formed by our one God - God the all-wise, almighty, and all-powerful. Above all else there is Him, the whole Him, the TRUE Him, despite what our little minds conceive to be Him. We can never know God as he knows himself. [i]The moment our mind has to cope with a mind superior to itself, the processes and the products of the superior mind must be largely shrouded in mystery to the lesser. We cannot see how the other mind arrives where it does, and we can comprehend only part of what it has arrived at. [b]Nor do we see this as any reason for rejecting the other's insights. If we are sane, we are delighted to know that the world should contain greater minds than our own; it would be a poor prospect for the world if it did not; it would be a poor world in which your mind or mine was the best existent.[/b][/i]* However many things in life we choose not to believe when we cannot understand. Some will simply turn and say, "There is no sense behind your logic and therefore I do not believe" but with God there is no logic other than pure love. Our minds are not capable of understanding or you might say 'grasping' what God is or what God can do. God IS, WAS, and ALWAYS WILL BE whether our minds understand or not. Again, some will not understand and thus say that He does not exist or that He is different than you say He is. What we know however is that He is and what we all can understand may be different but ultmiately he is supreme in everything, even those things which we in our humanity will never understand.

*Theology for Beginners by F.J. Sheed

[Semalsia]

[quote name='theculturewarrior']How does it compromise our credibility any more than somebody who says God doesn't exist?[/quote]

That eats up the credibility too. The fact that there can be doubt about these things makes God's existance questionable. Why is God hidden? If God exists, then why is it not clear? Why am I not convinced? How could I possibly deny God's existance?

[quote]"There is a sky." <--- Find the subjectivity.[/quote]

That's not the same. God is invisible.

[quote]what effect does our credibility have on God's existence?[/quote]

Nothing.

[theculturewarrior]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='May 10 2005, 05:06 PM']
That's not the same. God is invisible.

[/quote]
Spirits are invisible, and God is Spirit. My mind is invisible, but you know it exists because of the things I'm writing. When God posts messages, things happen. Children are born, people fall in Love, etc. God answers.

[quote]That eats up the credibility too. The fact that there can be doubt about these things makes God's existance questionable. Why is God hidden? If God exists, then why is it not clear?[/quote]

God doesn't hide his face from me. You didn't think God would bend the rules for you, did you? God did show himself to us. He was incarnated in the womb of a Virgin, and he preached among us, but we killed him.

He rose from the dead, and now 2 billion Christians claim him as their Savior.

[quote] Why am I not convinced? How could I possibly deny God's existance?[/quote]

Have you asked God if he is real? I did, once, about ten years ago. He answers.

[Semalsia]

[quote name='theculturewarrior']Spirits are invisible, and God is Spirit. My mind is invisible, but you know it exists because of the things I'm writing. When God posts messages, things happen. Children are born, people fall in Love, etc. God answers.[/quote]

How are we supposed to be able to separate the invisible from the non-existent? Your mind is your brain and I can see your brain.

I haven't heard anything from God. Things happening is not God, they are just things happening. Why do you say they are from God?

[theculturewarrior]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='May 10 2005, 06:07 PM'] [quote name='theculturewarrior']Spirits are invisible, and God is Spirit. My mind is invisible, but you know it exists because of the things I'm writing. When God posts messages, things happen. Children are born, people fall in Love, etc. God answers.[/quote]

How are we supposed to be able to separate the invisible from the non-existent? Your mind is your brain and I can see your brain.

I haven't heard anything from God. Things happening is not God, they are just things happening. Why do you say they are from God? [/quote]

[Semalsia]

What does that mean?

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='May 10 2005, 06:07 PM'] How are we supposed to be able to separate the invisible from the non-existent? [/quote]
I propose we rally against the belief that there is oxygen in the air. I cannot see it therefore it does not exist.

[jmjtina]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='May 10 2005, 05:07 PM'] How are we supposed to be able to separate the invisible from the non-existent? Your mind is your brain and I can see your brain.
[/quote]
No, you can't see his brain. Looking at anyone, thier heads are not transparent. Yet you know it's there, it exists.

Just because you see a jacket hanging from a wall doesn't mean it's suspended by the air either. Any sane person knows something is holding it up, in this case a hook. Just because you can't see it, doesn't change the fact of the hooks very exsistence.

Just because you can't see something doesn't mean it doesn't exsist.

Doubt is very different from absolute certainty.

[RandomProddy]

Three university buddies (A physicist, an astronomer and a mathematician) were going to a reunion and were taking the train from London to Edinburgh. On the way out of th window they saw a single black sheep standing in a field.

The astronomer said "Look, all sheep in Scotland are black"

The physicist said "No, alll sheep in this field are black".

The mathematician said "In Scotland, there is a field in which there is a sheep, one side of which appears to be black".

[theculturewarrior]

bump for faith.

[Semalsia]

I'm somewhat confused, but I'll just say that the truth is indeed objective. And there either is God or there isn't. There is no middle ground.

Now, we humans (I'm assuming you are humans too) are stuck to scientific ways of finding out the truth. And in science you can't find out the truth.

If you want to call it blindness, fine, but then there is no way of knowing who is blind and who isn't. And so the blind will not have objective knowledge of the sky.

[theculturewarrior]

If they blind lead the blind, they both fall into the ditch.

But I was blind and now I see.

[Guest jdawg83]

Either God exists or he doesn't exist, but our understanding of him is completely subjective. It all comes down to our own experiences. What may be "true" for you, might be a "lie" for someone else, and vice versa.