Attitudes towards homosexuals

[Guest jdawg83]

What is your attitude towards homosexuals? Do you think you should respect their sexual orientation and leave them in peace, or do you have a holy duty to try and "change" them and their ways???

[philothea]

I'm busy working on this beam in my eye right now. Maybe I can try to change someone later.

[Crispy]

*sigh*, jus when u think u get a rest God puts u back on ur feet (i jus had a discussion about this a little while ago). i feel another speech coming on,

the issue of homosexuality is very blurry. it is almost inpossibe to decide one clear way or ther other b/c they bot have the possibility of evil occuring. the first thing to know when dealing with people who are homosexual is to TREAT THEM WITH RESPECT. they are children of God just as you, and so they deserve the respect God wants of us ("Love your neighbor as you would yourself"). futhermore, they are often copnfused in one way or another about social acceptence, finding solid friendships, relationships with their dad (or mom if a girl). this enforces even more that they need love and respect form you because they usually have not found either where they should have.

however, you would be doing them a disservice if you left them to their sinful thoughts unaided. the first thing is to find out information on homosexuality, like what causes it what its effects are, etc. it will help you connect with the person better because u are addressing the very part of themselves that is most hurt (lack of friends, doesnt feel like "one of the guys", dad doesnt like me, etc). i remember hearing Johnny Romero (brother of Jesse Romero, both Catholic evangilists and public speakers) say that he was in an arguement with someone else who was a protestant. he said he ended up winning the religious arguement, but that the other guys said "yeah u won the arguement, but i'll never be Catholic, because of you". the point is that you need to be rsepect ful while helping them to understand what God wants of them, not attack them.

Granted, you wont have the opportunity to put that much care into each person you want to debate with about their sexuality. basically (and the short answer to ur question) you have to do both: respect them by not attacking them personally, but fulfilling ur duty to spread God's word to the unbeliever. love the sinner hate the sin.

[Brother Adam]

Hate the sin and love the sinner. Should you leave a crack addict with their candy? Of course not. They are inslaved to sin.

[philothea]

It's a simple enough phrase, but how do you speak to... say, a teenage girl you hardly know, who mentions online (not asking for advice) that she thinks she might be attracted to girls?

[cmotherofpirl]

Ask her why.

Most people go thru a phase when their best friend in the whole wolrd is the same sex. Sex is rarely a part of this relationship [ unless you watch MTV].
People then more on to regular male- female relationships.

[return2truth]

I have several homosexual friends. Remember that I came from a liberal point of view before my reversion to Catholicism, because of this I have learned how to tolerate and accept them without being judgemental. This doesn't mean I approve of their behaviour, but I have never been able to tell them that I think they suffer a disorder. Afterall, all of my friends who are gay feel they were born the way they are and therefore think there is nothing to do about it except to go with it. None of them are Christian either so that just makes them even more unapproachable on the subject.

[philothea]

I think almost everyone knows the Catholic church's stance on homosexuality. If I do meet someone whose been raised by wolves and isn't aware of the moral issue, I might clue them in. (Of course, I'd talk to any one who actually wanted my opinion -- this has not happened yet.)

I have come close to correcting a practicing gay man who thinks that the pope delcared him inherently evil, and that Ratzinger's letter on homosexuality was a thinly veiled order go beat up all the gays.

I haven't said anything, because I am not good at conflict.

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='philothea' date='May 14 2005, 11:42 AM'] It's a simple enough phrase, but how do you speak to... say, a teenage girl you hardly know, who mentions online (not asking for advice) that she thinks she might be attracted to girls? [/quote]
You're exactly right. I'm sick of hearing "hate the sin, love the sinner," because it doesn't work. When you let yourself hate, you just end up with more contempt and more hate.

First of all, I think that despite it being very common these days, online is probably the worst place to have a discussion with someone about something personal like sexual orientation. Nonetheless, I think often times what is lost on conservative Catholics, is the struggle. James Baldwin said, "You can see a man's fall but no one can know his wrasslin'" That is, no-one can know his internal struggles which brought him to that fall.

I've met a lot of homosexuals in my life - probably forty or fifty. Not a single one of them has ever professed to have realized that he/she was a homosexual and then just up and decided to have sex with the same gender without thinking twice about it. It's a struggle for everyone. I think maybe the fact that it is a struggle should clue them in to the difficulty of being gay.

However, when talking to anyone, gay, straight, whatever, you have to come from a place of respect for that person as a human being. Especially when you're attempting to "correct" something you see as wrong with them; that alone is cause for a lot of difficulty. So, in those instances, you need to be even more careful not to do more harm than good.

These days it's popular to label taking a more conciliary approach as being, "PC." It isn't. I think rather than hating the sin and loving the sinner, you should love the sinner first, and hate the sin second.

[Brother Adam]

Regardless of the 'orientation' of the phrase, you still described in your own words the phrase you have such a hatred for. I think you are dead wrong if you don't think conserv. Catholics know all about struggle. The difference is we are willing to live the intense struggle to be without the sin. Homosexuality is not something that can not be overcome. The group "Courage" is out there to help support those struggling with this sin.

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='May 14 2005, 02:10 PM'] Regardless of the 'orientation' of the phrase, you still described in your own words the phrase you have such a hatred for. I think you are dead wrong if you don't think conserv. Catholics know all about struggle. The difference is we are willing to live the intense struggle to be without the sin. Homosexuality is not something that can not be overcome. The group "Courage" is out there to help support those struggling with this sin. [/quote]
I didn't say it couldn't be overcome, I said that a lot of people don't understand the struggle.

[Brother Adam]

I think the vast majority of men understand about sexual sin. Albeit masturbation, pornography, homosexuality, premarital sex, and so on, it is all disordered affection, and Satan has reeled us in.

I try not to view those who claim 'homosexuality' as a different class of people like 'people with disabilities'. I don't see treating a person who has sex with a man any different than a man who has sexual pleasure with himself in front of a computer. Both have a very difficult struggle and both need prayers and help.

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='May 14 2005, 02:17 PM'] I think the vast majority of men understand about sexual sin. Albeit masturbation, pornography, homosexuality, premarital sex, and so on, it is all disordered affection, and Satan has reeled us in.

I try not to view those who claim 'homosexuality' as a different class of people like 'people with disabilities'. I don't see treating a person who has sex with a man any different than a man who has sexual pleasure with himself in front of a computer. Both have a very difficult struggle and both need prayers and help. [/quote]
True.

[Good Friday]

[quote name='Brother Adam']I think the vast majority of men understand about sexual sin. Albeit masturbation, pornography, homosexuality, premarital sex, and so on, it is all disordered affection, and Satan has reeled us in.

I try not to view those who claim 'homosexuality' as a different class of people like 'people with disabilities'. I don't see treating a person who has sex with a man any different than a man who has sexual pleasure with himself in front of a computer. Both have a very difficult struggle and both need prayers and help.[/quote]
Everyone has struggles, but the struggle with homosexuality is quite unique. If it could be as easily overcome as some of the sins you mention above, there would be no homosexuals -- because believe me, no one opts for the life that homosexuality provides, which is a life of alienation from society and a sense of constant hiding and fear.

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='Good Friday' date='May 14 2005, 06:48 PM'] [quote name='Brother Adam']I think the vast majority of men understand about sexual sin. Albeit masturbation, pornography, homosexuality, premarital sex, and so on, it is all disordered affection, and Satan has reeled us in.

I try not to view those who claim 'homosexuality' as a different class of people like 'people with disabilities'. I don't see treating a person who has sex with a man any different than a man who has sexual pleasure with himself in front of a computer. Both have a very difficult struggle and both need prayers and help.[/quote]
Everyone has struggles, but the struggle with homosexuality is quite unique. If it could be as easily overcome as some of the sins you mention above, there would be no homosexuals -- because believe me, no one opts for the life that homosexuality provides, which is a life of alienation from society and a sense of constant hiding and fear. [/quote]
Well said. I've missed you good friday, nice to see you hanging around again.

[Good Friday]

[quote name='KizlarAgha']Well said. I've missed you good friday, nice to see you hanging around again.[/quote]

Thanks.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Good Friday' date='May 14 2005, 08:48 PM']
Everyone has struggles, but the struggle with homosexuality is quite unique. If it could be as easily overcome as some of the sins you mention above, there would be no homosexuals -- because believe me, no one opts for the life that homosexuality provides, which is a life of alienation from society and a sense of constant hiding and fear. [/quote]
When you discover an easy method to overcome masturbation, pornography, extramarital and premarital sex, let the rest of the world know.
There are NO easy ways to overcome sin for anybody.

I wondered when you would show up

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Good Friday' date='May 14 2005, 07:48 PM'] [quote name='Brother Adam']I think the vast majority of men understand about sexual sin. Albeit masturbation, pornography, homosexuality, premarital sex, and so on, it is all disordered affection, and Satan has reeled us in.

I try not to view those who claim 'homosexuality' as a different class of people like 'people with disabilities'. I don't see treating a person who has sex with a man any different than a man who has sexual pleasure with himself in front of a computer. Both have a very difficult struggle and both need prayers and help.[/quote]
Everyone has struggles, but the struggle with homosexuality is quite unique. If it could be as easily overcome as some of the sins you mention above, there would be no homosexuals -- because believe me, no one opts for the life that homosexuality provides, which is a life of alienation from society and a sense of constant hiding and fear. [/quote]
Who said the others were easy? Clearly you've never been addicted to pornography. I have friends who have struggled with this sin since they were teens and in fact still struggle with it. Thankfully they don't claim it is 'just they way they were made' and there is nothing they can do about it.

[Cam42]

Ya know, this is pretty simple.

[quote]Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection. (CCC 2359)[/quote]

That is a great attitude to have. I have not always had it. I have come to understand that those who are homosexual need straight friends who are chaste to show and teach them that they can be chaste as well. Those who are homosexual should be held to the same standard as a straight single person.

That person should abstain from sex. That person should live a life that is chaste. Just what is chastity? It is a moral virtue. It is also a gift from God, a grace, a fruit of spiritual effort. (cf. CCC 2345) Chastity is expressed notably in friendship with one's neighbor. Whether it develops between persons of the same or opposite sex, friendship represents a great good for all. It leads to spiritual communion. (cf. CCC 2347) "People should cultivate [chastity] in the way that is suited to their state of life. Some profess virginity or consecrated celibacy which enables them to give themselves to God alone with an undivided heart in a remarkable manner. Others live in the way prescribed for all by the moral law, whether they are married or single." (cf. Persona Humana no.11)

So, we should befriend those who are homosexual, just like those who are heterosexual. They are our neighbors and they can promote great good. That is clear. If they are not living a chaste lifestyle, we must promote that with them, just as we would among those who are heterosexual and living the same type of lifestyle.

We are hyper-sensitive to the "gay problem." The truth of the matter is that there is no difference between a man and a woman who are unchaste outside of marriage and a man and a man or woman and a woman who are unchaste. Each set of persons are unchaste.

If we promote chastity then we promote chastity. We should do this in a consistent way. Don't look at the person as a homosexual look at the person as a person. Promote chastity with that person.

Is it an affliction, you bet. Can it be overcome? You bet. It is through the above that it can be done. How dare I say this?
[quote]Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved. (CCC 2357)[/quote]
and
[quote]The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition. (CCC 2358)[/quote]

Love homosexuals as persons. Support them as persons. Hold them to the same standards as heterosexuals. Easy to do.

Cam

[jezic]

[quote name='Cam42' date='May 15 2005, 09:20 AM'] Ya know, this is pretty simple.



That is a great attitude to have. I have not always had it. I have come to understand that those who are homosexual need straight friends who are chaste to show and teach them that they can be chaste as well. Those who are homosexual should be held to the same standard as a straight single person.

That person should abstain from sex. That person should live a life that is chaste. Just what is chastity? It is a moral virtue. It is also a gift from God, a grace, a fruit of spiritual effort. (cf. CCC 2345) Chastity is expressed notably in friendship with one's neighbor. Whether it develops between persons of the same or opposite sex, friendship represents a great good for all. It leads to spiritual communion. (cf. CCC 2347) "People should cultivate [chastity] in the way that is suited to their state of life. Some profess virginity or consecrated celibacy which enables them to give themselves to God alone with an undivided heart in a remarkable manner. Others live in the way prescribed for all by the moral law, whether they are married or single." (cf. Persona Humana no.11)

So, we should befriend those who are homosexual, just like those who are heterosexual. They are our neighbors and they can promote great good. That is clear. If they are not living a chaste lifestyle, we must promote that with them, just as we would among those who are heterosexual and living the same type of lifestyle.

We are hyper-sensitive to the "gay problem." The truth of the matter is that there is no difference between a man and a woman who are unchaste outside of marriage and a man and a man or woman and a woman who are unchaste. Each set of persons are unchaste.

If we promote chastity then we promote chastity. We should do this in a consistent way. Don't look at the person as a homosexual look at the person as a person. Promote chastity with that person.

Is it an affliction, you bet. Can it be overcome? You bet. It is through the above that it can be done. How dare I say this?

and


Love homosexuals as persons. Support them as persons. Hold them to the same standards as heterosexuals. Easy to do.

Cam [/quote]
well said