Attitudes towards homosexuals

[Good Friday]

[quote name='KizlarAgha']Well said. I've missed you good friday, nice to see you hanging around again.[/quote]

Thanks.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Good Friday' date='May 14 2005, 08:48 PM']
Everyone has struggles, but the struggle with homosexuality is quite unique. If it could be as easily overcome as some of the sins you mention above, there would be no homosexuals -- because believe me, no one opts for the life that homosexuality provides, which is a life of alienation from society and a sense of constant hiding and fear. [/quote]
When you discover an easy method to overcome masturbation, pornography, extramarital and premarital sex, let the rest of the world know.
There are NO easy ways to overcome sin for anybody.

I wondered when you would show up

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Good Friday' date='May 14 2005, 07:48 PM'] [quote name='Brother Adam']I think the vast majority of men understand about sexual sin. Albeit masturbation, pornography, homosexuality, premarital sex, and so on, it is all disordered affection, and Satan has reeled us in.

I try not to view those who claim 'homosexuality' as a different class of people like 'people with disabilities'. I don't see treating a person who has sex with a man any different than a man who has sexual pleasure with himself in front of a computer. Both have a very difficult struggle and both need prayers and help.[/quote]
Everyone has struggles, but the struggle with homosexuality is quite unique. If it could be as easily overcome as some of the sins you mention above, there would be no homosexuals -- because believe me, no one opts for the life that homosexuality provides, which is a life of alienation from society and a sense of constant hiding and fear. [/quote]
Who said the others were easy? Clearly you've never been addicted to pornography. I have friends who have struggled with this sin since they were teens and in fact still struggle with it. Thankfully they don't claim it is 'just they way they were made' and there is nothing they can do about it.

[Cam42]

Ya know, this is pretty simple.

[quote]Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection. (CCC 2359)[/quote]

That is a great attitude to have. I have not always had it. I have come to understand that those who are homosexual need straight friends who are chaste to show and teach them that they can be chaste as well. Those who are homosexual should be held to the same standard as a straight single person.

That person should abstain from sex. That person should live a life that is chaste. Just what is chastity? It is a moral virtue. It is also a gift from God, a grace, a fruit of spiritual effort. (cf. CCC 2345) Chastity is expressed notably in friendship with one's neighbor. Whether it develops between persons of the same or opposite sex, friendship represents a great good for all. It leads to spiritual communion. (cf. CCC 2347) "People should cultivate [chastity] in the way that is suited to their state of life. Some profess virginity or consecrated celibacy which enables them to give themselves to God alone with an undivided heart in a remarkable manner. Others live in the way prescribed for all by the moral law, whether they are married or single." (cf. Persona Humana no.11)

So, we should befriend those who are homosexual, just like those who are heterosexual. They are our neighbors and they can promote great good. That is clear. If they are not living a chaste lifestyle, we must promote that with them, just as we would among those who are heterosexual and living the same type of lifestyle.

We are hyper-sensitive to the "gay problem." The truth of the matter is that there is no difference between a man and a woman who are unchaste outside of marriage and a man and a man or woman and a woman who are unchaste. Each set of persons are unchaste.

If we promote chastity then we promote chastity. We should do this in a consistent way. Don't look at the person as a homosexual look at the person as a person. Promote chastity with that person.

Is it an affliction, you bet. Can it be overcome? You bet. It is through the above that it can be done. How dare I say this?
[quote]Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved. (CCC 2357)[/quote]
and
[quote]The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition. (CCC 2358)[/quote]

Love homosexuals as persons. Support them as persons. Hold them to the same standards as heterosexuals. Easy to do.

Cam

[jezic]

[quote name='Cam42' date='May 15 2005, 09:20 AM'] Ya know, this is pretty simple.



That is a great attitude to have. I have not always had it. I have come to understand that those who are homosexual need straight friends who are chaste to show and teach them that they can be chaste as well. Those who are homosexual should be held to the same standard as a straight single person.

That person should abstain from sex. That person should live a life that is chaste. Just what is chastity? It is a moral virtue. It is also a gift from God, a grace, a fruit of spiritual effort. (cf. CCC 2345) Chastity is expressed notably in friendship with one's neighbor. Whether it develops between persons of the same or opposite sex, friendship represents a great good for all. It leads to spiritual communion. (cf. CCC 2347) "People should cultivate [chastity] in the way that is suited to their state of life. Some profess virginity or consecrated celibacy which enables them to give themselves to God alone with an undivided heart in a remarkable manner. Others live in the way prescribed for all by the moral law, whether they are married or single." (cf. Persona Humana no.11)

So, we should befriend those who are homosexual, just like those who are heterosexual. They are our neighbors and they can promote great good. That is clear. If they are not living a chaste lifestyle, we must promote that with them, just as we would among those who are heterosexual and living the same type of lifestyle.

We are hyper-sensitive to the "gay problem." The truth of the matter is that there is no difference between a man and a woman who are unchaste outside of marriage and a man and a man or woman and a woman who are unchaste. Each set of persons are unchaste.

If we promote chastity then we promote chastity. We should do this in a consistent way. Don't look at the person as a homosexual look at the person as a person. Promote chastity with that person.

Is it an affliction, you bet. Can it be overcome? You bet. It is through the above that it can be done. How dare I say this?

and


Love homosexuals as persons. Support them as persons. Hold them to the same standards as heterosexuals. Easy to do.

Cam [/quote]
well said

[Apotheoun]

Man is not reducible to a disordered inclination.

Thus, it is wrong to make any disordered inclination (i.e., a concupiscent desire) an identifying characteristic of the human person.

[Good Friday]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl']When you discover an easy method to overcome masturbation, pornography, extramarital and premarital sex, let the rest of the world know.
There are NO easy ways to overcome sin for anybody.[/quote]
I didn't mean to imply that these sins were easy to overcome (in fact I think I said that, but that's not what I meant). The first two sins you mention, masturbation and pornography, are in fact very difficult to overcome. As for extramarital and premarital sex, I'm not certain that they're that difficult; there are a lot of people who commit to not having premarital sex and who live that commitment with relative ease. The difference, of course, is that heterosexuals who commit to not having premarital sex see the possibility of a loving, sexual relationship in the future -- that is, when they marry. They thus have something to look forward to, and a concrete reason to persevere, a reason that is absent from the life of the homosexual person. There will be no loving sexual relationship in the future of a homosexual person committed to Christian chastity.

There are two reasons that I believe homosexuality is more difficult to overcome than the things you mentioned above. First, homosexuality "is a more or less strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil; and thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder" (Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, "Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church on the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons," #3). An objective disorder compelling people to commit the sins you mention above does not usually exist. Secondly, whereas heterosexuals tempted to commit the sins you mention above have a very concrete and material reason to persevere -- that is, sacramental marriage -- homosexual persons do not have this reason to persevere. The reason for us to persevere is the conformity of our self-denial with the sacrifice of Christ, constituting for us a source of self-giving which will save us from a way of life which constantly threatens to destroy us (cf. Ibid., #12). Actually, this is the ultimate reason for [i]everyone[/i] to persevere, but for heterosexuals there is a [i]concrete[/i], lesser reason; for us, there is only this ultimate reason for perseverance, which often seems very distant, very out of reach, and only attainable after a very long journey toward a goal that, at times, seems almost impossible to accomplish.

Of course, this does not justify rejection of the journey or the goal. But what it should do is evoke the compassion of our brothers and sisters for a unique journey to our common goal that is often very difficult for us to accomplish because of our objective disorder.

I hope I've better clarified what I was trying to say.

[Brother Adam]

I understand what you are trying to say, but to clarify on a few points:

Marriage does not fix unchastity. Someone who is addicted to the first two will not find refuge in marriage, the problem will still persist. Married people in a very real way are called to chastity. Also, only married people, but not those who are called to the vocations of being religious, single, or to the priesthood will ever find any solace in marriage. So they may find similiar struggles that a homosexual finds. I've heard of the loniliness faced by some priests and sisters and can imagine it is often times just as hard as a person who is tempted into a homosexual relationship. I totally agree anyone who believes they are a 'homosexual' as society deems the word, should be shown compassion, just not that any activity in such a sin to be condoned.

[Melchisedec]

My brother-in-laws story about his homosexuality to me is a lesson on how far off the idea of it being a 'disorder' is. My wifes family are devoutely christian, my brother in law was the 2nd oldest out of 6 siblings. He had always felt different since he was a child, but did not really understand what the differences were. He had some girlfriends during Highschool, but they always ended up being more friends than anything. He didn't really care much for girls or dating. Once he started attending Bob Jones College, he started to feel an increasing amount of attraction towards other men. He was torn over these feelings, and thought to get rid of this 'disorder'. He dropped out of school and went into 'treatment' at a christian facility that specialized in trying to 'fix' the homosexual tendencies that people have.

He spent 5 years at this place! Was in a deep state of depression , due to the overwhelming spiritual conflict he had. When he decided to leave the program after giving up hope on fixing this 'disorder' , he met someone. Another gay man. They got involved into a relationship and he than realized that denying his homosexuality would be denying the very fabric of who he is. Hes been a happy gay man ever since. Him comming out to his family was one of the most difficult and troubling times he experienced. What did I do wrong cried his mom and dad, his brothers. It was a very emotional time that we all went through. While they love him and accept that he is not changing , they feel that their son has signed a death sentence for himself in the spiritual sense.

I guess why I decided to post this , even though I honestly doubt it will change your viewpoints is to illustrate that your notion of disorder is in my opinion denial. I am convinced that the bulk of homosexuals are born gay and its not some sort of mental disorder that some of you claim it is. Its who they are. Period. My uncle on my moms side is gay aswell. She told me she new he was gay from early on, he was not like the other boys and was clearly in her mind, gay from the start. I don't think homosexuality harms society in any way. They are indivuals who want to lead a life where they are afforded the same rights as us all. Which they deserve. I hope that homosexuals, can realize that religion will not ever serve their best interest. Its a pipe dream. Religion would only strive to 'cure' them of their homosexuality. The very nature of it , cannot accept their homosexuality. I hope they wake up , and realize, they dont need an ounce of what the church has to offer.

[Brother Adam]

What you have found here is someone who sees no value in suffering, and instead has choosen to take an easier path in life, the wide and easy road if you will. Homosexual persons aren't expected to stop having temptations, they are expected, as we all are, to live chaste lives. All people deal with temptation their whole lives, giving into it is not the correct answer. Not that anything we could say could change your view either

[Melchisedec]

DELETE

Edited May 16, 2005 by Melchisedec

[Crispy]

i have found reason enough for myself that people with homosexual desires are not born with it, like a diease. i believe it is a disorder, but not in the medical sense of the word, like something easily cured with a pill. it is disorderd, as in without order, as in without the ordered purpose intended to it.

certain things, when combined early in life, can lead someone to homosexuality. if u looked at people who proclaim themselves homosexualy, i bet ud find that a lot of them had bad relations with their parents, didnt fit in, felt unconfident with themselves, or didnt have any good male (or female) role models. this can leave a guy feeling like he wants to be with guys because he wants friends or to be stronger/more "manly". when he hits puberty, he can begin to confuse those desires with sexual desires.

i really think thats the heart of it: confusion and a desire for love - brotherly love, fatherly love, love of one another that bonds firends together.

[Semalsia]

[quote name='Brother Adam']What you have found here is someone who sees no value in suffering, and instead has choosen to take an easier path in life, the wide and easy road if you will. [/quote]

There is also such thing as needless suffering. I guess I could also claim that you have choosen to take an easier path in life by not breaking both your legs and living rest of your life in a wheelchair. Or if you are in a hurry to go to a hospital, why not take the longer way there? My point is that making your life harder for nothing is pointless.

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='May 16 2005, 04:35 PM'] [quote name='Brother Adam']What you have found here is someone who sees no value in suffering, and instead has choosen to take an easier path in life, the wide and easy road if you will. [/quote]

There is also such thing as needless suffering. I guess I could also claim that you have choosen to take an easier path in life by not breaking both your legs and living rest of your life in a wheelchair. Or if you are in a hurry to go to a hospital, why not take the longer way there? My point is that making your life harder for nothing is pointless. [/quote]
It's only restrictive if you feel restricted by it. It is only suffering not to have sex, if you feel that it is suffering. I personally don't have a problem with it whatsoever. In fact, I think it's kind of liberating. Relationships are a total hassle and sex is gross.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Crispy' date='May 16 2005, 04:18 PM'] i have found reason enough for myself that people with homosexual desires are not born with it, like a diease.  i believe it is a disorder, but not in the medical sense of the word, like something easily cured with a pill.  it is disorderd, as in without order, as in without the ordered purpose intended to it. 

certain things, when combined early in life, can lead someone to homosexuality.  if u looked at people who proclaim themselves homosexualy, i bet ud find that a lot of them had bad relations with their parents, didnt fit in,  felt unconfident with themselves, or didnt have any good male (or female) role models.  this can leave a guy feeling like he wants to be with guys because he wants friends or to be stronger/more "manly".  when he hits puberty, he can begin to confuse those desires with sexual desires. 

i really think thats the heart of it: confusion and a desire for love - brotherly love, fatherly love, love of one another that bonds firends together. [/quote]
Many experts have come to this conclusion, and I beleive it to be probably correct. It's a psychological disorder, not an inherited biological condition.

Of course, this idea has become politically incorrect.

Edited May 16, 2005 by Socrates