Catholic marrying a non-Catholic

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='May 17 2005, 08:43 PM'] Our members married to non-christians MIGHT disagree. [/quote]
they might be wrong then.

[Wolfie]

[quote name='scardella' date='May 17 2005, 12:55 PM'] It would seem that one would have to avoid non-Catholics in social situations to prevent such a relationship from occurring. [/quote]
That doesn't make sense to me...

???you have to "avoid" people to prevent a relationship from occurring??? (qualifying "relationship" as a dating relationship)

obviously thats not true. I go to events/parties all the time...meet plenty of people and enjoy my old acquaintences, and I don't leave with ANY "relationships". (sometimes I wish I would :wub: )

come on now....

[MichaelFilo]

And CMOM was the one who was talking about how much feelings don't matter....


Without the Sacraments, the marriage is not approved by God. It is just a union between two persons. Like secular marriage. Sure, they may love each other, but it is without the blessings of the Church.

God bless,
Mikey

[Azriel]

Here we go again!

Look, me and Lil Red have both been around the block with this one. If anyone wants to ask me all about my experience marrying a Non Catholic, not much of anything, in the Church, with proper dispensation given. (11 years and counting with a beautiful baptized baby girl being raised Catholic) hit me up in PM or email.

[Mateo el Feo]

I'm flipping through Canon Law, trying to figure this stuff out, and looking for some help. Given:[list]
[*]A marriage between two Catholics is sacramental.
[*]A marriage between a Catholic and a non-Christian ("disparity of cult") is not sacramental; but it is allowed by dispensation.
[/list]My questions are:[list]
[*]Is a marriage between one Catholic and one baptized non-Catholic Christian considered to be sacramental?
[*]Are the terms "sacramental marriage" and "Christian marriage" interchangeable? "Christian marriage" shows up in the Code of Canon Law.
[/list]Thanks!

PS--Since I'm hooked on Aquinas, here's something from the Summa Theologica, though his own answer doesn't seem to agree with the current Code of Canon Law.

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/505901.htm"]Whether a believer can marry an unbeliever? (link)[/url]

[MichaelFilo]

Sacramental marriage is between two baptized persons (not suprisingly, that means Christians). It is sacramental, although I don't know the proper administers of the sacrament are. (For instance, is it reserved to priests, or can a lay person marry people (which is what a protestant minister would be)).

God bless,
Mikey

[philothea]

As far as I understand, married people administer the sacrament to each other.

[Mateo el Feo]

If I remember correctly:

In the Eastern Churches, the priest is the minister of the sacrament. In the Western Church, the fiancees are the ministers of the sacrament (in the presence of an officiating priest).

In extra-ordinary circumstances (e.g. being trapped on a deserted island), lay persons may administer the sacrament marriage. In ordinary circumstances, a priest must be present.

[philothea]

That sounds like what I recall, too.

[kateri05]

i just married a non-Catholic Christian almost 6 months ago, and it was definitely a sacrament trust me, i checked

it DID require special permission; the priest is required to fill out forms to get a special dispensation, even to a Christian, because if the faith is important enough to you to get married in the Church, they want to know why you're not marrying a Catholic. usually the reasons involve the potential for conversion, or in other cases, because of children already in existence, etc etc.

also, it is HIGHLY recommended that you perform the wedding outside of a mass (which i did!) since the Eucharist is not something that you share and it is required that the Catholic party (here, myself) agree to raise the children catholic, formally in a canonically binding document (which i also did!)

however, the unequally yoked verse would still apply in this case because we AREN't the same and i had to do a lot of praying and discerning before hand about the heavy mantle of responsibilty of raising catholic children by myself. My fiancee (at the time) was/is supportive of raising the children Catholic (should God choose to bless us with them), but the weight of the responsibility still fell on me as the Catholic to teach the Faith of the Church.

so would i recommend it? not really. will it happen anyways? yes. true love (and God!) is funny like that So basically, don't look for a non- Catholic spouse on purpose, but you never know where God will lead you. and non-Christian is a whole other barrel of worms that should be best left unopened. not that its not impossible, but there will definitly be heartache!

and who knows, the catholic spouse might one day have to answer the question of "how does RCIA work" by their non-Catholic spouse and have the shock of a lifetime

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='kateri05' date='May 18 2005, 12:33 AM'] i just married a non-Catholic Christian almost 6 months ago, and it was definitely a sacrament trust me, i checked

it DID require special permission; the priest is required to fill out forms to get a special dispensation, even to a Christian, because if the faith is important enough to you to get married in the Church, they want to know why you're not marrying a Catholic. usually the reasons involve the potential for conversion, or in other cases, because of children already in existence, etc etc.

also, it is HIGHLY recommended that you perform the wedding outside of a mass (which i did!) since the Eucharist is not something that you share and it is required that the Catholic party (here, myself) agree to raise the children catholic, formally in a canonically binding document (which i also did!)

however, the unequally yoked verse would still apply in this case because we AREN't the same and i had to do a lot of praying and discerning before hand about the heavy mantle of responsibilty of raising catholic children by myself. My fiancee (at the time) was/is supportive of raising the children Catholic (should God choose to bless us with them), but the weight of the responsibility still fell on me as the Catholic to teach the Faith of the Church.

so would i recommend it? not really. will it happen anyways? yes. true love (and God!) is funny like that So basically, don't look for a non- Catholic spouse on purpose, but you never know where God will lead you. and non-Christian is a whole other barrel of worms that should be best left unopened. not that its not impossible, but there will definitly be heartache!

and who knows, the catholic spouse might one day have to answer the question of "how does RCIA work" by their non-Catholic spouse and have the shock of a lifetime [/quote]
If they where a baptised Christian then yes it might be Sacramental ( I don't say is because there are things which can impede the sacrament even for Catholics) but if it is with some one who is not a baptised Christian then it is not a sacrament period.

[mulls]

[quote name='mulls' date='May 17 2005, 06:00 PM'] i don't get it.....don't be unequally yoked....why is this even allowed? [/quote]
i repeat.....


why would the Church allow such a complicated matter to take place in the first place, when it has the power to say 'no' and keep everyone nice and Catholic?

[dUSt]

[quote name='mulls' date='May 18 2005, 09:02 AM'] i repeat.....


why would the Church allow such a complicated matter to take place in the first place, when it has the power to say 'no' and keep everyone nice and Catholic? [/quote]
For the greater good. I think the church recognizes that if it came down to choosing between one's lover and one's faith, many would choose to leave their faith in favor of their lover. So, for the sake of the children, I think the church allows Catholics to marry non-Catholics so at least the children will be raised according to God's will--where as, if they were not allowed to marry, then it might result in the children not being raised Catholic at all.

For example, Lil Red said that at the time she got married she wasn't really into her faith like she is now. What if the church wouldn't have allowed her to marry? I'm not saying she would have chosen to get married outside of the church, but it's a possibility--and it might have led to her never discovering her faith, and in turn, her children might never be raised Catholic. Just a hypothetical.

Of course, this is just my personal opinion. I'm sure the church has better reasons--I just am too lazy to look them up right now.

[scardella]

[quote name='mulls' date='May 18 2005, 09:02 AM'] Why would the Church allow such a complicated matter to take place in the first place, when it has the power to say 'no' and keep everyone nice and Catholic? [/quote]
Well, first, you may be in an area where there are few Catholics. If you are obligated to marry only a Catholic, then you might have practical problems there in finding a suitable spouse.

Second, real life just doesn't always work that neatly. Everyone is flawed in some way, that's life thanks to Original Sin. Sometimes that means that the person you're called to marry has not embraced the fullness of truth. You might even be the means that God uses to draw him* into the Church. There are also many Protestants whose belief is much more in line w/ the Church than others who call themselves Catholic.

So, to answer the question directly, it already is a complicated matter. This is why you need discernment in marriage, whomever you want to "yoke up" with.

*In the English language, the male gender is used when the gender is unknown. Take that, political correctness!

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='mulls' date='May 18 2005, 10:02 AM'] i repeat.....


why would the Church allow such a complicated matter to take place in the first place, when it has the power to say 'no' and keep everyone nice and Catholic? [/quote]
I'm reminded of a parallel case of the tolerance of divorce in protestantism and even Eastern Orthodoxy:
[quote name='Matthew 19:8']"For your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. "[/quote]
Not a perfect comparison, but something to think about.

In my own opinion, the serious question isn't really, "Why does the Church allow this?" The more important question is: "How does is one's ability to grow spiritually impacted by making a lifelong commitment to someone who either doesn't believe that Jesus Christ established the Catholic Church (i.e. mixed marriage) or doesn't believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God (i.e. disparity of cult)?"

Though having two Catholic parents are no guarantee of a child's embrace of the faith, it certainly becomes more difficult to believe the claims of the Catholic Church when one parent rejects those claims. Especially in a pluralistic society, it's quite natural for a child of a mixed marriage to become a relativist, claiming that one religion is as good as another.

It's worth emphasizing a Catholic who chooses to carry the extra burden of marrying a non-Catholic will also be placing a great burden on his/her children.

[Azriel]

[quote name='dUSt' date='May 18 2005, 09:20 AM'] For the greater good. I think the church recognizes that if it came down to choosing between one's lover and one's faith, many would choose to leave their faith in favor of their lover. So, for the sake of the children, I think the church allows Catholics to marry non-Catholics so at least the children will be raised according to God's will--where as, if they were not allowed to marry, then it might result in the children not being raised Catholic at all.

For example, Lil Red said that at the time she got married she wasn't really into her faith like she is now. What if the church wouldn't have allowed her to marry? I'm not saying she would have chosen to get married outside of the church, but it's a possibility--and it might have led to her never discovering her faith, and in turn, her children might never be raised Catholic. Just a hypothetical.

Of course, this is just my personal opinion. I'm sure the church has better reasons--I just am too lazy to look them up right now. [/quote]
Ditto.

My mom married a non-Catholic ... who converted.
My Grandma married a non-Catholic .. who converted.
I married a Non Catholic - am working on conversion ... by God's grace, and not my own.

Discernment, prayer, and being obedient to the Church. and Love. Love does have a bit to do with it.

[MichaelFilo]

Why does the Church allow Catholics to allow marriage between Catholics and non-Catholic? Simply, because the Church has always understood that Catholics and non-Catholics have their faults, and not holding on to the Faith handed down by the apostles of Jesus Christ, from Jesus Christ, is a big one, but still a fault. It can be fixed, in due time.

God bless,
Mikey

[Mateo el Feo]

We shouldn't re-write history. A more appropriate word than "allow" would be "tolerate."

I figure someone should quote a pope or two. So that someone will be me!

[url="http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Greg16/g16summo.htm"]SUMMO IUGITER STUDIO (ON MIXED MARRIAGES) ENCYCLICAL OF POPE GREGORY XVI. MAY 27, 1832 [/url]
[quote name='Pope Gregory XVI']The Apostolic See has always ensured that the canons forbidding the marriages of Catholics with heretics have been observed religiously. Occasionally such marriages have been tolerated in order to avoid more serious scandals. But, even then, the Roman Pontiffs saw to it that the faithful were taught how deformed these marriages are and what spiritual dangers they present. A Catholic man or woman would be guilty of a great crime if he presumed to violate the canonical sanctions in this matter. And if the Roman Pontiffs themselves very reluctantly relaxed this same canonical prohibition in some serious cases, they always added to their dispensation a formal condition: that the Catholic party must not be perverted, but rather must make every effort to withdraw the non-Catholic party from error and that the offspring of both sexes must be educated entirely in the Catholic religion.[/quote]

[url="http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Greg16/g16quasv.htm"]QUAS VESTRO (ON MIXED MARRIAGES) ENCYCLICAL OF POPE GREGORY XVI. APRIL 30, 1841[/url]

[quote name='Pope Gregory XVI']If, indeed, in certain places, because of difficulties of place and conditions, such marriages (i.e. mixed) are tolerated, the reason is surely a sort of moderation. It is in no way to be considered approbation or approval, but merely a toleration, brought about not willingly but by necessity to avoid greater evils.[/quote]

[url="http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius11/P11CASTI.HTM"]CASTI CONNUBII (On Christian Marriage) ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XI. DECEMBER 31, 1930[/url]
[quote name='Pope Pius XI']82. They, therefore, who rashly and heedlessly contract mixed marriages, from which the maternal love and providence of the Church dissuades her children for very sound reasons, fail conspicuously in this respect, sometimes with danger to their eternal salvation. This attitude of the Church to mixed marriages appears in many of her documents, all of which are summed up in the Code of Canon Law: "Everywhere and with the greatest strictness the Church forbids marriages between baptized persons, one of whom is a Catholic and the other a member of a schismatical or heretical sect; and if there is, add to this, the danger of the falling away of the Catholic party and the perversion of the children, such a marriage is forbidden also by the divine law."[62] If the Church occasionally on account of circumstances does not refuse to grant a dispensation from these strict laws (provided that the divine law remains intact and the dangers above mentioned are provided against by suitable safeguards), it is unlikely that the Catholic party will not suffer some detriment from such a marriage.[/quote]

[kateri05]

and even in order for that "toleration" to occur, the officiant presiding at the marriage (ie the priest filling out the paperwork) has to provide a REASON why the exception should be made.

of course, in a country where annulments are handed out like candy, that could be just as meaningless in some cases, but, i'm sure the Holy Spirit tries to work within the system

Don Jon, as for your comment:
:QUOTE: If they where a baptised Christian then yes it might be Sacramental ( I don't say is because there are things which can impede the sacrament even for Catholics) but if it is with some one who is not a baptised Christian then it is not a sacrament period. :QUOTE:

if the two parties are both baptized, full consent is given, openless to life is professed and a committment to raising the offspring in the Church then the marriage is a valid and binding SACRAMENT. punto.

[mulls]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='May 18 2005, 01:18 PM'] Why does the Church allow Catholics to allow marriage between Catholics and non-Catholic? Simply, because the Church has always understood that Catholics and non-Catholics have their faults, and not holding on to the Faith handed down by the apostles of Jesus Christ, from Jesus Christ, is a big one, but still a fault. It can be fixed, in due time.

God bless,
Mikey [/quote]
this is quite smooth coming from one who labels protestants as heretics (though i do very much admire your zeal). but here not being catholic is simply a "fault"?

mikey in this context what do you do with 2 corinthians 6:14-16?