Nature of Heaven

[Semalsia]

Yes, yes, I know that you don't know, but nevertheless. I once heard some catholic (priest I assumed) on radio answer to a little girl that she would meet her beloved doggy in the Heaven, since God would know that would make her happy.

Now, I started thinking, if all you really want is to have someone you love (your child, spouse or whatever) with you in Heaven, then would that person be there? I mean, what kind of Heaven would it be, if you would be miserable there? Well, of course you are going to meet everyone that is in Heaven, but what if the person you want to meet is in Hell?

This is a problem, no?

[Brother Adam]

If you want to read in depth on it I suggest "The Lamb's Supper" as a good start.

[Ellenita]

[quote]Now, I started thinking, if all you really want is to have someone you love (your child, spouse or whatever) with you in Heaven, then would that person be there? I mean, what kind of Heaven would it be, if you would be miserable there? Well, of course you are going to meet everyone that is in Heaven, but what if the person you want to meet is in Hell? [/quote]

We won't have an awareness of anything 'missing' though will we? Isn't heaven about being 'in the fullness of God'?

[Aloysius]

those who go to hell will be set eternally as evil spirits... you don't want to be with an evil spirit even if they were your friend or relative when they still had a chance to be good.

btw, in regards to the dog answer... that was somewhat a touchy feely type thing not necessarily too theological... but here's what I can tell you:

animals have mortal, not immortal, souls. they are here for our sake. the love of a human being can however elevate them by his memory of them and as such the animal can live forever for your sake. but animals don't have immortal souls because they are not made in the image and likeness of God and so will only live insomuch as they are elevated in the love of man.

[Semalsia]

[quote name='Ellenita']We won't have an awareness of anything 'missing' though will we?[/quote]


What does that exactly mean? Are you saying we won't be fully aware? Are you saying we won't remember everything? Are you saying we will be drugged?

I'm having hard time seeing constant happiness being anything else but these.


[quote name='Aloysius']those who go to hell will be set eternally as evil spirits... you don't want to be with an evil spirit even if they were your friend or relative when they still had a chance to be good.
[/quote]

So people will not be themselfs in the afterlife? Does this mean that in Heaven you don't have chance to do anything bad? Doesn't that limit free will?

[sxtncndles]

I think that in Heaven, you won't be tempted to do evil, because you'll be with God. The 'free will' on Earth is yeilding to temptation or not, and we won't get that in Heaven.

[Paphnutius]

Perhasp reading the second of of the Summa would greatly aid this discussion. Read the articles that deal with happiness and what it will be like.

[Myles Domini]

[quote]Yes, yes, I know that you don't know, but nevertheless. I once heard some catholic (priest I assumed) on radio answer to a little girl that she would meet her beloved doggy in the Heaven, since God would know that would make her happy.

Now, I started thinking, if all you really want is to have someone you love (your child, spouse or whatever) with you in Heaven, then would that person be there? I mean, what kind of Heaven would it be, if you would be miserable there? Well, of course you are going to meet everyone that is in Heaven, but what if the person you want to meet is in Hell?

This is a problem, no? [/quote]

God is infinite and in Heaven you will be able to experience Him? Is it logically possible to want more than what God actually is?

[Aloysius]

true freedom is the power to do what is right. it is not our modern conception of freedom, i.e. we can do good or bad; because when we do bad we enslave ourselves to evil.

you will be yourself in heaven. you will be the perfected you, as you were created to be. you will not sin or do any evil or wrong; but you will still be yourself. if you consider evil a big part of yourself... perhaps you should re-examine where your after life will really be spent. while you may now be imperfect and a doer of some evil things because of this imperfection, your nature is not evil.

once you enter eternity; there is NO CHANGING. The state of your soul is as it was when you entered eternity, because for change you need the movement of time; and in eternity you escape all movement of time and simply live forever. anyway, so you are eternally good, the person in hell is eternally evil. you don't want to meet him anymore, because he is an evil person. he is no longer your friend or relative, he is a slave of evil for all eternity and you want no part of him. since at this point he is entered into eternity and cannot change, you will not even want to befriend him in the hopes of him changing, because you know for a fact that he cannot change.

if your child or spouse or whatever became eternally evil with no chance of changing, there is nothing left for you to do but let go and joyfully look forward to your eternity. and so you shall, for God will purify every imperfect attachment to things that are worldly that can no longer satisfy. that person whom you were attached to on earth IS NO MORE. that person does not exist, there is an evil spirit who was that person, but he will never again have the chance to change for good.

[Ellenita]

[quote]What does that exactly mean? Are you saying we won't be fully aware? Are you saying we won't remember everything? Are you saying we will be drugged?[/quote]

No not at all, I wasn't saying that....

Complete and total happiness must be in being in the fullness of God....that's what our souls long for and I don't know that it's ever attainable here on earth because we often judge our happiness in 'worldly' terms...."if only I looked this way/had this thing/was in a relationship, I'd be completely happy".....but in heaven there is the fullness of God isn't there, so everything else that distracts us or trys to imitate that on earth won't exist for us.

Does this make sense I don't think I'm explaining it very well.....



[quote]once you enter eternity; there is NO CHANGING. The state of your soul is as it was when you entered eternity[/quote]

Al, this is a new concept for me...I thought (or maybe I can't imagine a time when this wouldn't be the case! ) we would always be on the road to knowing God more and developing our relationship with Him, even in heaven, and that involves change.

[Paphnutius]

As far is there being no change, St. Thomas described the beatific vision as a resting. That is an action, although a resting one.

Edited May 19, 2005 by Paphnutius

[Ellenita]

So the notion of what we understand change to be is very different in heaven?

[Aloysius]

your soul is in eternity, it no longer changes. it is perfected before you get there. it is the reason that no one in heaven can ever be sent to hell and that no one in hell can ever be sent to heaven... you have become who you will be for all eternity.

I didn't say there wouldn't be action; simply that you yourself would never change. once you live in eternity, you are no longer bound by the constraints of time. only the structure of time changes people, because change necessitates at this point in time you are this and at the next point in time you are that.

[son_of_angels]

Aware. Hmm... an interesting word.

I would say we are completely aware, in all the sense that complete unity and fellowship with the Cosmic Lord implies, aware of everything, including our completeness in Christ, etc.

However, being aware is not the same as what we experience it on earth. We will not have eyes, so how will we see. We will not have ears, so how will we hear, etc. Instead this awareness moves beyond substance and experience.

Nor, it seems to me, would awareness have the sensual nature that it does on earth. For example, awareness in life often leads to jealousy or other forms of desire and despair. Sure we may be aware that the dog or what not is not with us, but being freed from all despair that awareness will somehow lead us to joy. After all, everything, even the most mortal of creatures, fulfills a purpose that is representative of some aspect of God in our lives. Each part, when used and allowed to fulfill its highest function, exists as a participator in Divine Happiness. In that sense, perhaps our accomplishment of that state will be even more in union with the essence of a creature, like a pet, than would simply living and being with them. Who knows?

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='son_of_angels' date='May 19 2005, 06:53 PM']
However, being aware is not the same as what we experience it on earth. We will not have eyes, so how will we see. We will not have ears, so how will we hear, etc. Instead this awareness moves beyond substance and experience.
[/quote]
We will have ressurected bodies will we not?

[Aloysius]

yes we will...

one term that scares me I hope can be clarified.. what did you mean by "cosmic lord"

while I'm sure it's innocent and simply mentioning the fact that He is the Lord of Heaven and Earth; it seems like it has some new-agey connotations to me

[marboniface]

The Essence of Heaven

The essence of heaven is what is called the Beatific Vision, or seeing God. Now the funny thing about the beatific vision is this: the vision of God is too high for our intellects to grasp, so God gives us a special grace (called the Light of Glory) which allows us to share in his vision of himself.

God sees/knows himself all the time; and if you want to know what God knows and see what God sees, you will have to wait to get the Beatific Vision.

Of course, our intellects are not capable of seeing everthing that God sees, but we will be given the maximum we can see - which determined by the ammount of charity/grace in our souls when we die.

Now for the bit about dead loved ones.

Everything which is good, is in some way a reflection of the goodness of God, but far inferior to His goodness. Even the goodness in things which might be somewhat wrong, there is a reflection however vague of the goodness of God (there is no evil which is pure evil, because even the most evil thing is still held in existance by God and thus has some goodness about it).

Now the love we have for another person, a mother, a child etc. is love for some aspect of goodness about that person or the relationship we have with the person (it might work on many levels). But those good things only exist because God keeps them existing and they in some way reflect his goodness. Now, if we love a person who ends up going to hell, we will not necessarily miss them in heaven for this reason:

Whatever we could possibly miss about any person is already in God, and not just in the same measure, but in super-abundance. So in seeing God, we will not feel any loss or as though anything is missing: heaven is perfect happiness, excluding every sorrow.

What then will we feel for those who are damned, especially those we loved in this life? We will feel love for them - a pure right love which is probably stronger than any love we felt for them in this life. However, we will not feel this love mixed with pain: our love will be pure love, not selfish love. Indeed, we will probably love them in a similar way to God, who does not destroy them, but keeps them in existence. Now they are not kept in existence as a punishment, for existance is better than obliteration, but they are keep in existence for the sake of love.

The scary thing about hell is that everyone who goes to hell has chosen to go there. The most severe punishment in hell is the absence of God: now in this life it is easy to forget God because we are weak. But in hell the damned soul knows full well what existence without God is like: miserable.

Further, the physical punishments of hell are fitting because one should not enjoy created things more than one enjoys God. Now, if one is not enjoying God in the next life, one should not enjoy any created thing either: which means that every created thing the damned know brings them misery, according to their level of attachment at the time of death. So the damned will miss those who they loved in this life, but will not love them; indeed the damned are likely to hate those whom they loved in this life, because the memory of them causes pain. Why should this memory cause pain? Because it is not in true love, it is selfish love.

Every love which does not put God first and creatures second is ultimately selfish.

Conclusion: do not worry about anything except to love God, because God does not disapoint or deceive. If you love God you will love everthing and enjoy everthing in the end. But if you think that you can truely love things by spurning God, you have only deceived yourself of your selfishness.

Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us, pilgrim souls.

Marboniface

[son_of_angels]

I used the term "Cosmic Lord" to reference God's nature as outside of space and time, Lord of the Heavens. Yes, yes it does have new agey connotations, but, hey, one must learn the language before they can preach the message. Moreover, I would say almost every religious movement is imperfectly fulfilled in Christ, and points to his divinity, that includes new age theology (although it is REALLY annoying sometimes).

I would remind you, Paphnutius, that while we indeed will have resurrected bodies, one has actually be resurrected. Thus we won't get them until "on the last day" when "the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible." Clearly this glorified and resurrected body shall be caused by the reunion of the part of us that dwelt outside of time with Christ, and the part of us that remained here on earth, or, if none, I guess whatever could be left. That reunion will change all of us into one resurrected and glorified being beyond imagination, for "we shall be like him."

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='son_of_angels' date='May 20 2005, 09:57 AM'] I would remind you, Paphnutius, that while we indeed will have resurrected bodies, one has actually be resurrected. Thus we won't get them until "on the last day" when "the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible." Clearly this glorified and resurrected body shall be caused by the reunion of the part of us that dwelt outside of time with Christ, and the part of us that remained here on earth, or, if none, I guess whatever could be left. That reunion will change all of us into one resurrected and glorified being beyond imagination, for "we shall be like him." [/quote]
Exactly....and you are saying that we will not eyes nor ears?

Did Christ's ressurected body not have eyes and ears? Was Thomas not able to touch His wounds?

[son_of_angels]

You misunderstand me. Yes, we will have ears, eyes, etc. That is when we have our glorified bodies after the resurrection.

Heaven is a whole different animal. There one is talking about life pre-ressurection. This is the "paradise" promised to the thief on the cross and to all believers.

After all is said and done we won't all go up to heaven, but heaven will be brought down here.
So, in a sense there are two after-lifes: one which follows natural death, in which we dwell outside of time and space, and one which follows the resurrection, in which we dwell inside of time and space but with the eternity of God. Only in the latter afterlife do we have glorified bodies, like Christ, bodies which have both substance and form, and which have all those nice senses we enjoy on earth. To a certain extent, I have felt that, no matter how bad life is, life is always preferrable to death. Ergo, the resurrection.
Well, pardon the rambling.