Nature of Heaven

[Aloysius]

yes we will...

one term that scares me I hope can be clarified.. what did you mean by "cosmic lord"

while I'm sure it's innocent and simply mentioning the fact that He is the Lord of Heaven and Earth; it seems like it has some new-agey connotations to me

[marboniface]

The Essence of Heaven

The essence of heaven is what is called the Beatific Vision, or seeing God. Now the funny thing about the beatific vision is this: the vision of God is too high for our intellects to grasp, so God gives us a special grace (called the Light of Glory) which allows us to share in his vision of himself.

God sees/knows himself all the time; and if you want to know what God knows and see what God sees, you will have to wait to get the Beatific Vision.

Of course, our intellects are not capable of seeing everthing that God sees, but we will be given the maximum we can see - which determined by the ammount of charity/grace in our souls when we die.

Now for the bit about dead loved ones.

Everything which is good, is in some way a reflection of the goodness of God, but far inferior to His goodness. Even the goodness in things which might be somewhat wrong, there is a reflection however vague of the goodness of God (there is no evil which is pure evil, because even the most evil thing is still held in existance by God and thus has some goodness about it).

Now the love we have for another person, a mother, a child etc. is love for some aspect of goodness about that person or the relationship we have with the person (it might work on many levels). But those good things only exist because God keeps them existing and they in some way reflect his goodness. Now, if we love a person who ends up going to hell, we will not necessarily miss them in heaven for this reason:

Whatever we could possibly miss about any person is already in God, and not just in the same measure, but in super-abundance. So in seeing God, we will not feel any loss or as though anything is missing: heaven is perfect happiness, excluding every sorrow.

What then will we feel for those who are damned, especially those we loved in this life? We will feel love for them - a pure right love which is probably stronger than any love we felt for them in this life. However, we will not feel this love mixed with pain: our love will be pure love, not selfish love. Indeed, we will probably love them in a similar way to God, who does not destroy them, but keeps them in existence. Now they are not kept in existence as a punishment, for existance is better than obliteration, but they are keep in existence for the sake of love.

The scary thing about hell is that everyone who goes to hell has chosen to go there. The most severe punishment in hell is the absence of God: now in this life it is easy to forget God because we are weak. But in hell the damned soul knows full well what existence without God is like: miserable.

Further, the physical punishments of hell are fitting because one should not enjoy created things more than one enjoys God. Now, if one is not enjoying God in the next life, one should not enjoy any created thing either: which means that every created thing the damned know brings them misery, according to their level of attachment at the time of death. So the damned will miss those who they loved in this life, but will not love them; indeed the damned are likely to hate those whom they loved in this life, because the memory of them causes pain. Why should this memory cause pain? Because it is not in true love, it is selfish love.

Every love which does not put God first and creatures second is ultimately selfish.

Conclusion: do not worry about anything except to love God, because God does not disapoint or deceive. If you love God you will love everthing and enjoy everthing in the end. But if you think that you can truely love things by spurning God, you have only deceived yourself of your selfishness.

Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us, pilgrim souls.

Marboniface

[son_of_angels]

I used the term "Cosmic Lord" to reference God's nature as outside of space and time, Lord of the Heavens. Yes, yes it does have new agey connotations, but, hey, one must learn the language before they can preach the message. Moreover, I would say almost every religious movement is imperfectly fulfilled in Christ, and points to his divinity, that includes new age theology (although it is REALLY annoying sometimes).

I would remind you, Paphnutius, that while we indeed will have resurrected bodies, one has actually be resurrected. Thus we won't get them until "on the last day" when "the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible." Clearly this glorified and resurrected body shall be caused by the reunion of the part of us that dwelt outside of time with Christ, and the part of us that remained here on earth, or, if none, I guess whatever could be left. That reunion will change all of us into one resurrected and glorified being beyond imagination, for "we shall be like him."

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='son_of_angels' date='May 20 2005, 09:57 AM'] I would remind you, Paphnutius, that while we indeed will have resurrected bodies, one has actually be resurrected. Thus we won't get them until "on the last day" when "the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible." Clearly this glorified and resurrected body shall be caused by the reunion of the part of us that dwelt outside of time with Christ, and the part of us that remained here on earth, or, if none, I guess whatever could be left. That reunion will change all of us into one resurrected and glorified being beyond imagination, for "we shall be like him." [/quote]
Exactly....and you are saying that we will not eyes nor ears?

Did Christ's ressurected body not have eyes and ears? Was Thomas not able to touch His wounds?

[son_of_angels]

You misunderstand me. Yes, we will have ears, eyes, etc. That is when we have our glorified bodies after the resurrection.

Heaven is a whole different animal. There one is talking about life pre-ressurection. This is the "paradise" promised to the thief on the cross and to all believers.

After all is said and done we won't all go up to heaven, but heaven will be brought down here.
So, in a sense there are two after-lifes: one which follows natural death, in which we dwell outside of time and space, and one which follows the resurrection, in which we dwell inside of time and space but with the eternity of God. Only in the latter afterlife do we have glorified bodies, like Christ, bodies which have both substance and form, and which have all those nice senses we enjoy on earth. To a certain extent, I have felt that, no matter how bad life is, life is always preferrable to death. Ergo, the resurrection.
Well, pardon the rambling.

[Semalsia]

I'm just thinking of a quote by Andrew Jackson.. "Heaven will be no heaven to me if I do not meet my wife there."

God can't be a substitute for another. And whether that person exists or not is irrelative. The point being that these things lead to contradictions. Heaven can't be what you want it to be. Which, again, is a contradiction.

Also, if there is no change in Heaven, then there can't be thinking in Heaven either.

[Paphnutius]

We only think that it cannot be what we desire because we have inordinate attachments to created things.

[Crispy]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='May 25 2005, 06:01 PM'] We only think that it cannot be what we desire because we have inordinate attachments to created things. [/quote]
exactly.

btw, i wouldnt put much stake in Andrew Jackson's interpretation of heaven. after all, companies will label their snacks and icecream as "heaven", but i doubt the ecstasy of God's Love can be contained in a food (besides the eucharist, obviously).

[God Conquers]

Heaven is the dynamic revelation, in the presence of God, of those attributes which make Him who He is: namely Truth, Beauty and Joy.

This is what a priest (ultra knowledgeable) told me once. That heaven is certainly not static, and that we will grow in our understanding and happiness (so-called) while there.

[curtins]

heaven is so good- it blows our minds- God is infinatly better than anything

he will satisfy EVERYTHING we have/ nothing can compare, we will be way to busy basking in God's presence, adoring him, being with him- to notice a family member/ freind etc

i think

[DemonSlayer]

Heaven is all just about the happiness in having a relationship with God.

Edited June 1, 2005 by DemonSlayer

[Guest JeffCR07]

[quote] I'm just thinking of a quote by Andrew Jackson.. "Heaven will be no heaven to me if I do not meet my wife there."

God can't be a substitute for another. And whether that person exists or not is irrelative. The point being that these things lead to contradictions. Heaven can't be what you want it to be. Which, again, is a contradiction.[/quote]

Jackson's quote displays an intrinsically disordered love if he truly meant what he said, rather than making an exaggerated comment to show the depth of his love for his wife.

We must understand that every object of love which positively exists is necessarily good, for all positively existing things are created by God. All that is good derives that goodness from God. Thus, our true love for any particular thing is nothing more than a concrete love of God.

"Love" ceases to be true love when it no longer leads one to give praise to God for His Goodness. Whenever "love" for a creation causes one to value it aside from and without thought of the Creator, that "love" is disordered and sinful.

Thus, if my "love" of money causes me to value money outside of the context of it being a creation and gift of God, then that "love" is disordered and sinful - thus we get greed. Similarly, if my "love" of my wife causes me to value my wife outside of the context of her being a beautiful creation and wonderful gift of God, then that "love" is not true love, but a disordered and sinful love.

Remember always that we shall know good from evil by the fruit it bears. If my "love" for anything causes me to see God as insufficient to provide for my perfect happiness, then such a "love" is not love at all, but rather, it is sin.

In Christ,

Jeff

[Semalsia]

JeffCR07
Are you saying that the only thing you love is God? And that you would not really love even your wife as herself, but only in the light that you see God in her? And that nothing of this world is of value to you?

Somehow this seems more sadder image of reality than that of mine. That only death has value (to you).

[1337 k4th0l1x0r]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='Jun 3 2005, 10:45 PM'] JeffCR07
Are you saying that the only thing you love is God? And that you would not really love even your wife as herself, but only in the light that you see God in her? And that nothing of this world is of value to you? [/quote]
Somehow I don't think that is what he is saying. Good attempt to put words into his mouth though.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

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