Will Europe go the way of Byzantium?

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='God Conquers' date='May 23 2005, 05:20 PM'] Constantinople was essentially eclipsed by European culture.

Its falling to the muslims wasn't the critical point, but the result of a much earlier fall from grace.

How was it eclipsed? Its vibrant Christian culture was lost. It separated itself from the Church, and the world shifted its cultural, religious and economic center from the Mediteranean onto Europe.
[/quote]
That's really not the case at all. The fall of Constantinople saw the rise and zenith of great mediterranean powers like the Venetians and the increased power of the Ottoman sultanate. Europe didn't become a place of high culture on a worldwide scale until the 18th century in my mind.

[God Conquers]

What!?

The High Middle Ages (12th to 13th C) were THE HIEGHT of European Culture.

Europe was dying by the 18th C. 100 yrs of nontop warfare.

[argent_paladin]

So, you are saying that Europe was weaker in 1800 than it was in 1700? During that century, the British empire continued to grow, as did the French and Dutch. The majority of the world's population was directly or indirectly ruled by European countries. The best authors, musicians, scientists, etc in the world were in Europe. Militarily, no continent could come close to European power. Two continents, North and South America were being conquered by Europeans in this period.
And you have to give more support for the 12-13th c being the high point of European culture. It wasn't so for literature or music, nor for science or engineering, or politics or history. It was for philosophy and perhaps theology. And maybe architecture. But Europe wasn't even the most cultured part of the world, China and the Middle East were enjoying greater civilization.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='God Conquers' date='May 24 2005, 12:28 AM'] What!?

The High Middle Ages (12th to 13th C) were THE HIEGHT of European Culture.

Europe was dying by the 18th C. 100 yrs of nontop warfare. [/quote]
I completely agree, The High Middle Ages is the penical of culture for all of history, by 1700 European culture was already almost dead.


Argent Paladin-- I would heartily disagree on the issue of science, certianly the great scientist of the world in the 12th and 13th century where in Europe. However I don't concider the progress of Science to be a sign of Cultural significance so I guess that doesn't really matter. As for Politices I completly disagree the 12th century was the High of political development for anynation anywhere, we have now spent 800 years going backward. Music and literature both flrished in the Middle Ages, Much of what was composed no longer survives so it is hard to make judgements of value, but I would remind you the that before the Middle Ages there was no means for writting music.


Please tell me what you concider to be " cultured".

[RandomProddy]

[quote name='God Conquers' date='May 24 2005, 07:28 AM'] The High Middle Ages (12th to 13th C) were THE HIEGHT of European Culture. [/quote]
Long Live the Enlightenment..

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='May 24 2005, 08:11 AM'] I completely agree, The High Middle Ages is the penical of culture for all of history, by 1700 European culture was already almost dead.


Argent Paladin-- I would heartily disagree on the issue of science, certianly the great scientist of the world in the 12th and 13th century where in Europe. However I don't concider the progress of Science to be a sign of Cultural significance so I guess that doesn't really matter. As for Politices I completly disagree the 12th century was the High of political development for anynation anywhere, we have now spent 800 years going backward. Music and literature both flrished in the Middle Ages, Much of what was composed no longer survives so it is hard to make judgements of value, but I would remind you the that before the Middle Ages there was no means for writting music.


Please tell me what you concider to be " cultured". [/quote]
Look, I consider the height of world culture to be 12th and 13th century europe - that's my obsession. However, at the time, Europe wasn't the height of scientific learning - Islam was. You need to study the translation schools of Toledo, and the interchange of ideas between Christians and Muslims. In fact, Thomas Aquinas once said in a paper that he needed to be precise lest "the Saracens laugh at us."

Islam was at the top of its game in the 12th and 13th century, superior in many ways to what europe had to offer. As the 13th century progressed, we see a leveling of the playing field so to speak. The 13th century really was an incredible period for European growth and development. It is ironic that the fall of Akka coincided with the zenith of European power and splendor (or very nearly)

However, my point was that the seat of power never shifted to Europe from Byzantium. They were never really one contiguous whole after about the 5th century. A series of losses in warfare led to the fall of Constantinople due to the Byzantine empire's reliance on mercenary troops and its inability to exert effective control over its own provinces. When Constantinople fell in 1453, the Sultan Mehmet II repopulated it and the city quickly became the most splendid in the world - again.

[RandomProddy]

[quote name='Noel's angel' date='May 20 2005, 07:22 PM'] Ireland is safe [/quote]
Ireland is safe because it's a decent country with powerful friendly neighbours.

[Noel's angel]

lol, very true. Plus they have me

[RandomProddy]

[quote name='Noel's angel' date='May 24 2005, 06:32 PM'] lol, very true. Plus they have me [/quote]
that's true, they'd have to be totally crazy to invade.

[Noel's angel]

ha ha!!!

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='KizlarAgha' date='May 24 2005, 10:51 AM'] Look, I consider the height of world culture to be 12th and 13th century europe - that's my obsession.  However, at the time, Europe wasn't the height of scientific learning - Islam was.  You need to study the translation schools of Toledo, and the interchange of ideas between Christians and Muslims.  In fact, Thomas Aquinas once said in a paper that he needed to be precise lest "the Saracens laugh at us."

Islam was at the top of its game in the 12th and 13th century, superior in many ways to what europe had to offer.  As the 13th century progressed, we see a leveling of the playing field so to speak.  The 13th century really was an incredible period for European growth and development.  It is ironic that the fall of Akka coincided with the zenith of European power and splendor (or very nearly)

However, my point was that the seat of power never shifted to Europe from Byzantium.  They were never really one contiguous whole after about the 5th century.  A series of losses in warfare led to the fall of Constantinople due to the Byzantine empire's reliance on mercenary troops and its inability to exert effective control over its own provinces.  When Constantinople fell in 1453, the Sultan Mehmet II repopulated it and the city quickly became the most splendid in the world - again. [/quote]
The scientific achievments of Islam is one of the most overblown aspects of history. By the 13th century Europe was far ahead in metallurgy, had developed the horse collar, and made effective use of the screw for more than carrying water up. Little of " Islamic Science" was actually theirs most of it was simply greek and Roman learning which had been saved, further it was increasingly stagnent and traped in superstition. Medicine in the West was infact held back by arab medicine, long after the superstition of astrology was expelled from the other sciences in the West it held on in medicine because of it's promonant place in Arab text. Islamic science was never more than the leavings of Greece and Rome, and it never progressed, by the 13th century European science was far ahead in most areas.

Edited May 24, 2005 by Don John of Austria

[Guest Eremite]

[quote]"Europe will return to the Faith, or she will perish. The Faith is Europe. And Europe is the Faith."

--Hilaire Belloc[/quote]