"John Paul the Great"

[Guest FiddlingFingers]

#1 Don't kill me for starting this debate...I don't like to be killed.

What is with the whole John Paul the Great thing?

[dUSt]

It's referencing John Paul II. He was the last pope. He was great.

[Guest Eremite]

I think Sainthood and Greatnesshood are rightly judged by different standards. John Paul II will most definitely be a Saint. His holiness was irreproachable. But "Greatness", I think, has to do with an extraordinary effect on the governance of the Church. To judge it, you have to consider whether his decisions were truly great. How did they pan out in the grand scheme of things? Etc...

[Noel's angel]

Can't add anything else myself. dUSt pretty well summed it up

[Dudette]

[quote name='dUSt' date='May 20 2005, 02:03 PM'] It's referencing John Paul II. He was the last pope. He was great. [/quote]
Awesome answer.

[Catholictothecore]

He was. Consider these

He canonized 430-some. That doubled the size of all the others proclaimed by his 263 predeccesors.

He travelled more to more countries and more times returned to many of those countries then any of his predeccesors.

He basically made the Communists retreat from eastern Europe single handedly.

He taught and instructed to such levels so as to be profound, yet at the same time keeping his teachings on the level that anyone could understand.

And they wouldn't just look at his papacy either. His life also bears tremendous testament to God's grace. His life was what made him a saint; his papacy made him great.

[FutureSoror]

I think being 'great' doesn't necessarily have a whole lot to do with any one thing in particular. If enough people love someone enough and think he is 'great', they will call him 'the great'. We'll just have to see if it sticks and passes the test of time. I think that if someone has the title it is mainly a demonstration of the regard people had for him in in lifetime.

[Didacus]

Holiness is being close to God, and miracles must be attributed to JPII before he can be acclaimed a saint by the church. There is no guarantee the he will be sainted - ever. But he is a popular candidate to say the least.

Greatness is an acclamation of the people of the church. The more he is called 'The Great', and the more who insist on using this terminology, the more he will be accepted as 'The Great'.

One could point out that there are over twice as many sainted popes in history than there is 'Great' popes (only 3 greats, I believe 9 sainted, but don't quote me on that).

I believe he is well on the way to becoming the Great. Newspapers commonly refer to him in this fashion (especially in Rome and Italy, and I would believe in Poland as well). Going through the internet, I see more artciles on him refering to him as the Great. Look at phatmass home page.

If the name sticks to JPII as being the Great, then he will be known as such and the church will eventually (officially) refer to him with this title.

[Aloysius]

there are many more than 9 sainted popes in history... starting with Peter the first three centuries have all popes as saints... then there's a lot more after that as well.

the title "the great" is up for the people to decide. the title "saint" is up for the Magisterium to decide.

[Cam42]

With all due respect.....

Let's let him be dead a little while. While his pontificate was long, hence the many canonizations, cardinals, etc....there still needs to be deep probes into his life. Contrary to popular belief, there is a lot we don't know about him.

As far as "The Great" title goes, there are only four.....Is he on the same level as Gregory, Leo, Basil and Albert? I don't know.....

Let's let time play a role in this and respect the passing before we start with the titles. Remember, at this point, all we know for sure is that he is in the ground. We don't know for sure if he is in heaven, purgatory (where I think of him), or hell.

I think of John Paul II in purgatory, because I think the mercy of God is great, but since he is not canonized, I can't say that he is in heaven for certain. Prudence rules my life....for the most part.

Cam

[Don John of Austria]

Ahh A voice of reason.

[Q the Ninja]

Yay!

[Aloysius]

I agree.

[God Conquers]

Our current pope thinks of JPII as in Heaven, so we may have reason for the hastiness.

[Jaime]

GC makes a good point!!

[notuntilthefatladysings]

Good on ya Cam you've summed it up brilliantly

With all due respect we should be praying for John Paul II, not canonizing him according to the church of you me or the next person. If it be the will of God then Holy Mother the Church will canonize Pope JP2.

He needs our prayers more than our praise

I have much respect for JPII but feel that Pope St Pius X was the 'greatest' Pope of the 20th century.

God Bless Yass!!!

Notuntilthefatladysings

[Cam42]

[quote name='God Conquers' date='May 24 2005, 12:31 AM'] Our current pope thinks of JPII as in Heaven, so we may have reason for the hastiness. [/quote]
And this is more than speculation? Still no certainty.

[Guest Eremite]

[quote]Is he on the same level as Gregory, Leo, Basil and Albert? I don't know.....[/quote]

Yes.

PS: Pope St. Nicholas was also a Magnus.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Eremite' date='May 24 2005, 09:46 AM']
Yes.

PS: Pope St. Nicholas was also a Magnus. [/quote]
How is he as great as the other greats????

And not to quibble, but in most papal lists, Pope St. Nicholas I is listed as that, while Leo and Gregory are listed as Great.

And are you sure that John Paul II is to be listed with the greatest pope of all, Gregory I (the Great)? That is a big assertation....how do you come up with that?

I am also a great fan of Albertus Magnus, the teacher of Aquinas. Those are some pretty big shoes to fill as well. He is known also as the "Universal Doctor."

I am interested in your thoughts.

Cam

[Noel's angel]

If Pope John Paul II isn't in Heaven, there isn't much hope for the rest of us

Yes, he is Great. That is all