kateri05 Posted September 5, 2007 Share Posted September 5, 2007 [quote]A woman wearing modest pants still offends God, not by lack of modesty, but by dressing like a man. A woman wearing an immodest skirt or dress offends God less than a woman wearing a modest pair of pants.[/quote] i completely disagree with this because being a stumbling block to your neighbor would be far more of an offense to God. and, i'm with St. Colette on this - its not a woman wearing men's clothing if she's wearing women's pants! sigh. i think we again have a situation of trying to burden someone with more than the Church requires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafka Posted September 5, 2007 Share Posted September 5, 2007 A friend of mine wrote this: Proper Clothing for Catholic Women "A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman's garment; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD your God." (Deut 22:5). "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfil them. For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. Whever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." (Mt 5:17-19). Saint Padre Pio use to refuse to hear the confession of women who were wearing pants or an immodest dress. Women should not dress or act like men, for this is an abomination in God's eyes. God created the human race with two genders, intending each to have his and her proper place in Creation. Men and women are not meant to behave or dress the same manner. Part of the beauty of the human race is found in the differences between men and women. We each live within a larger society. We are each influenced by the culture around us. Yet society and culture often teach us false things, which lead us away from God. Most women (at least in Western society and culture) dress and act very much like men. They seek the same roles in society, the family, and the Church. They are following a popular teaching of our culture today, that women and men are meant to have the same roles, and especially that women are meant to take up roles formerly held only or mainly by men. They are displaying their adherence to this teaching by dressing like men. This teaching of our culture is contrary to the teaching of Christ. God wants men and women to act and dress according to their gender and the place God has given each one in Creation. Clothing and hairstyles are expressions of one's thoughts, behavior, and attitude. Women are not mean to behave like men, nor to have the same roles as men, therefore they should not dress or groom themselves like men. And vise versa. Women should wear skirts and dresses; they should not generally wear pants (although there may be some exception for certain sports, certain types of work, etc). Women should have longer hair than men; a woman's hair style should be feminine (not masculine and not androgenous). Women should dress and groom themselves in a feminine manner, to show that they accept the place God has given women in Creation, in society, in the family, and in the Church. Modesty is a separate issue. A woman wearing modest pants still offends God, not by lack of modesty, but by dressing like a man. A woman wearing an immodest skirt or dress offends God less than a woman wearing a modest pair of pants. The offense of a woman wearing pants is an offense against the very order which God built into Creation and humanity. The offense of a woman wearing men's clothing is called an abomination by Sacred Scripture. When a woman dresses and acts like a man, it is an offense against the very order which God built into Creation and human nature. God is offended, even more so, when women dress and act like men in churches and during holy Mass. By comparison, when a woman wears a short skirt, or a tight dress, her offense is only a matter of degree (the same skirt, if lengthened, might be considered modest). Such an offense is not intrinsically disordered -- it does not contradict or rebel against the fundamental order which God gave to Creation and humanity. But most women, and even most men, do not accept this teaching. They accept the teachings of their culture and ignore the teachings of Sacred Scripture. When the Church teaches one thing and their culture teaches another, they follow their culture instead of Christ. 12 Point Summary: First, male and female clothing was distinct during biblical times. The passage from Deuteronomy saying that men should not dress like women and women should not dress like men must have made sense to the Israelites. They lived the Scriptures before they wrote them down. Second, though men wore robes, women's dresses were distinctly different. Third, during New Testament times, Roman soldiers did wear trousers, so pants were known and were worn only by men. Fourth, for a very long time in the Church, men wore pants and women did not. This had become established within Christian culture as one of the main differences between men's and women's clothing. Only very recently has this difference been obscured. Fifth, Padre Pio would not even hear the confession of women who wore pants. Sixth, the passage from Deuteronomy specifically forbids unisex clothing. Even if some persons or many persons in ancient times dressed the same, Scripture is still true and must still be obeyed. Seventh, when the Virgin Mary appears in apparitions, she is always wearing a dress, never pants. All of the images and statues of her throughout the history of the Church present her wearing a dress, never pants. Eighth, when visiting the Pope or the Vatican, women are not permitted to wear pants. And they must wear a headcovering. When George Bush and his wife Laura visited the Pope recently, she wore a dress and a headcovering. Ninth, some Protestant groups still retain this insight, based on Scripture, that women should dress in a feminine manner, should not wear pants, and should wear a headcovering. Tenth, clothing is an expression of behavior and role. Even in our sinful society, clothing is still associated with roles, for example: police officers, judges, nurses, priests, nuns, and others wear particular clothing appropriate to and indicative of their roles. And one's clothing is also an indicator of behavior and attitude. For example, nuns who are obedient to the Church like to wear the habit, but those who are disobedient hate to wear it. Eleventh, men and women are meant to have different roles in the Church, the family, and society. Men and women are meant to have different behaviors. Clothing is an indicator and expression of that important difference. So, the more important thing is the correct roles and behaviors for men and women. That is the main point of that passage from Scripture. Twelfth, when a woman gives up wearing pants and strives to dress in a manner pleasing to Christ and Mary, even though the culture around her tells her otherwise, she will be blessed by God and her prayers will be answered. 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kateri05 Posted September 6, 2007 Share Posted September 6, 2007 [quote]hen visiting the Pope or the Vatican, women are not permitted to wear pants. And they must wear a headcovering.[/quote] wrong and wrong again. women are not permitted to dress immodestly but are certainly admitted to the vatican in modest pants. nor do they have to wear headcoverings. i've been in the vatican and known people who met the pope and none of us wore a veil. besides, the veil doesn't even apply to Popes, it has to do with being in the presence of the Eucharist. your friend must not have read the veiling thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoosieranna Posted September 6, 2007 Share Posted September 6, 2007 [quote name='kateri05' post='1378861' date='Sep 5 2007, 06:32 PM']oh thank heavens. i thought i was the only one!! [/quote] Nope! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kateri05 Posted September 6, 2007 Share Posted September 6, 2007 wow. in three places. a bit much, doncha think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XIX Posted September 6, 2007 Share Posted September 6, 2007 [quote]First, male and female clothing was distinct during biblical times. The passage from Deuteronomy saying that men should not dress like women and women should not dress like men must have made sense to the Israelites. They lived the Scriptures before they wrote them down.[/quote] Still is. Most women who wear pants wear pants that I would never wear, because I am a guy. Capris. Anythings with sparkles on it. Anything white. etc. [quote]Second, though men wore robes, women's dresses were distinctly different.[/quote] Just like women's pants today are distinctly different. [quote]Third, during New Testament times, Roman soldiers did wear trousers, so pants were known and were worn only by men.[/quote]Well, I'm not a Roman soldier. So there you go. [quote]Fourth, for a very long time in the Church, men wore pants and women did not. This had become established within Christian culture as one of the main differences between men's and women's clothing. Only very recently has this difference been obscured.[/quote] [quote]Fifth, Padre Pio would not even hear the confession of women who wore pants.[/quote]I think he was wrong to do that. I'm sure you have and currently are disagreeing with future saints. Is their sanctification proof that they are right? Saint are totally fallible, we should not treat them as if they are the final authority on a debate. [quote]Sixth, the passage from Deuteronomy specifically forbids unisex clothing. Even if some persons or many persons in ancient times dressed the same, Scripture is still true and must still be obeyed.[/quote]Again, pants =/=unisex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrincessKRS Posted September 6, 2007 Share Posted September 6, 2007 [quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1378502' date='Sep 5 2007, 10:08 AM']Why are there always so many threads critical of women, what they wear and their behavior? We got "veiling" "strapless dresses" and "pants" all going right now. It gets very tiresome to constantly be debating all the time...[/quote] [quote name='kateri05' post='1378861' date='Sep 5 2007, 08:32 PM']oh thank heavens. i thought i was the only one!! i just figure you know something's wrong, when i'm the most conservative, orthodox person i know, and one of the most modest and conscious dressers (for heaven's sake, i don't even like to wear pants!), and then i come to phatmass and feel like i'm some ultra-liberal, heterodox skanky hoochy mama [/quote] I laughed out loud at the idea of you as a skanky hoochy mama! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XIX Posted September 6, 2007 Share Posted September 6, 2007 [quote]Seventh, when the Virgin Mary appears in apparitions, she is always wearing a dress, never pants. All of the images and statues of her throughout the history of the Church present her wearing a dress, never pants.[/quote]She's normally wears blue, does she not? I don't think she's ever worn pink in an apparition. Is a woman in sin if she wears pink? [quote]Eighth, when visiting the Pope or the Vatican, women are not permitted to wear pants. And they must wear a headcovering. When George Bush and his wife Laura visited the Pope recently, she wore a dress and a headcovering.[/quote]From what I recall, I don't think that's a requirement--but I am not sure. I haven't been to Rome in 2.5 years. I know for a fact that nobody in our group who was let into St. Peter's Basilica was wearking a veil. [quote]Ninth, some Protestant groups still retain this insight, based on Scripture, that women should dress in a feminine manner, should not wear pants, and should wear a headcovering.[/quote]Good for them. [quote]Tenth, clothing is an expression of behavior and role. Even in our sinful society, clothing is still associated with roles, for example: police officers, judges, nurses, priests, nuns, and others wear particular clothing appropriate to and indicative of their roles. And one's clothing is also an indicator of behavior and attitude. For example, nuns who are obedient to the Church like to wear the habit, but those who are disobedient hate to wear it.[/quote]Sure. I agree totally. But again, this goes back to the fact that you can easily find feminine pants. [quote]Eleventh, men and women are meant to have different roles in the Church, the family, and society. Men and women are meant to have different behaviors. Clothing is an indicator and expression of that important difference. So, the more important thing is the correct roles and behaviors for men and women. That is the main point of that passage from Scripture.[/quote]Agree. [quote]Twelfth, when a woman gives up wearing pants and strives to dress in a manner pleasing to Christ and Mary, even though the culture around her tells her otherwise, she will be blessed by God and her prayers will be answered.[/quote] Here you are assuming what you are trying to prove. I really hope I didn't come across as being harsh. I appreciate your friend and I think it is great that this whole thing was written. But I have to disagree with a lot of her main points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrincessKRS Posted September 6, 2007 Share Posted September 6, 2007 [quote]Proper Clothing For Catholic Women, as far as I am concerned this is the last thing said[/quote] Guess its a good thing you're not the one setting down all the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffpugh Posted September 6, 2007 Share Posted September 6, 2007 If you read again, it's not even Kafka's argument. Just a friend's. But yeah, good points there XIX. There is something to take from both sides though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kateri05 Posted September 6, 2007 Share Posted September 6, 2007 [quote name='IcePrincessKRS' post='1378933' date='Sep 5 2007, 06:17 PM'] I laughed out loud at the idea of you as a skanky hoochy mama![/quote] i'm such corrupting influence btw, just another insert. scottish kilts. try telling those men they're wearing "feminine clothing." a more masculine bunch you'l never see! not to mention cute Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffpugh Posted September 6, 2007 Share Posted September 6, 2007 Meh, I know Kafka has his reasons for this. There has been a lot of attention given to the whole female clothing issue. We should prolly settle it right here and right now. Please commence charitably in tearing each other apart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kateri05 Posted September 6, 2007 Share Posted September 6, 2007 seriously, why is this in a separate thread? mods, could this get deleted or merged or something? it seems silly to have the exact same posts in THREE threads! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafka Posted September 6, 2007 Share Posted September 6, 2007 yeah just some new and provocative thoughts. I thought they would be interesting to share and see how everyone reacts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted September 6, 2007 Share Posted September 6, 2007 I cannot believe there is ANOTHER thread on this topic. This is rediculous... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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