cathoholic_anonymous Posted September 6, 2007 Posted September 6, 2007 (edited) [quote]Modesty is a separate issue. A woman wearing modest pants still offends God, not by lack of modesty, but by dressing like a man. A woman wearing an immodest skirt or dress offends God less than a woman wearing a modest pair of pants.[/quote] Where does God express a preference for this? When I was staying with my cousin after a gap of three years since we saw each other last, she arranged for us to go out for a nice meal as a surprise. (Not much fun for me, as I hate surprises.) I had brought no dressy clothes with me, aside from a beaded blouse that could pass for evening wear. I had a choice between borrowing Michelle's black velvet trousers or a cocktail-type dress. I went with the trousers. I do not go out with my cleavage showing. I will choose pants in a situation like that. Every time. God seems to live with it all right. Edited September 6, 2007 by Cathoholic Anonymous
kafka Posted September 6, 2007 Posted September 6, 2007 sorry I am sort of passionate about this subject. Society is now grossly disordered when it comes to the proper God roles God has ordained for men and woman. And its both men and womans and clergies fault and the sinfullness of secular society for these disorders. I think the Magisterium should move toward making some solemn definitions concerning the role of men and woman and maybe a guide on how woman should dress etc. within the realm of Sacred Tradition, and Sacred Scripture and drawing on past examples e.g. the Middle Ages.
kafka Posted September 6, 2007 Posted September 6, 2007 [quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1378952' date='Sep 5 2007, 08:27 PM']Where does God express a preference for this? When I was staying with my cousin after a gap of three years since we saw each other last, she arranged for us to go out for a nice meal as a surprise. (Not much fun for me, as I hate surprises.) I had brought no dressy clothes with me, aside from a beaded blouse that could pass for evening wear. I had a choice between borrowing Michelle's black velvet trousers or a cocktail dress. I went with the trousers. I do not go out with my cleavage showing. I will choose pants in a situation like that. Every time. God seems to live with it all right.[/quote] "A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman's garment; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD your God." (Deut 22:5).
MissScripture Posted September 6, 2007 Posted September 6, 2007 I would like to take this opportunity to point out that even modest skirts can quickly become immodest if the situation for the skirt is wrong. I was once wearing a modest skirt, while taking care of my three year old cousin. In the process of attempting to chase down and carry the child, I managed to let an entire room full of people see up my skirt. I WILL not wear skirts without shorts on underneath, since then. Do you suppose I would've had that problem had I been wearing pants? I think not.
homeschoolmom Posted September 6, 2007 Posted September 6, 2007 Okay... I'm sorry but "pants" are not men's clothing. Back in the day, tunics, togas and cloaks were... I promise, I won't dress in any of those.
kateri05 Posted September 6, 2007 Posted September 6, 2007 yea, when i taught PE last year and wore my "PE skirt" ( its like a tshirt, sweatshirt material), i would wear volleyball shorts underneath. we wouldn't want any "Surprises."
Sojourner Posted September 6, 2007 Posted September 6, 2007 [quote name='kafka' post='1378955' date='Sep 5 2007, 07:28 PM']sorry I am sort of passionate about this subject. Society is now grossly disordered when it comes to the proper God roles God has ordained for men and woman. And its both men and womans and clergies fault and the sinfullness of secular society for these disorders. I think the Magisterium should move toward making some solemn definitions concerning the role of men and woman and maybe a guide on how woman should dress etc. within the realm of Sacred Tradition, and Sacred Scripture and drawing on past examples e.g. the Middle Ages.[/quote] What do you see men doing that is "out of role"?
kateri05 Posted September 6, 2007 Posted September 6, 2007 [quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1378961' date='Sep 5 2007, 06:29 PM']Okay... I'm sorry but "pants" are not men's clothing. Back in the day, tunics, togas and cloaks were... I promise, I won't dress in any of those.[/quote] oh and don't forget hose. you know, tights. as in, something that now women wear i'm repeating my mod request to merge this back into the original thread since this exact same discussion is merely wasting dUSt's valuable server space
homeschoolmom Posted September 6, 2007 Posted September 6, 2007 [quote name='kateri05' post='1378968' date='Sep 5 2007, 08:33 PM']oh and don't forget hose. you know, tights. as in, something that now women wear i'm repeating my mod request to merge this back into the original thread since this exact same discussion is merely wasting dUSt's valuable server space [/quote] Trust me, I try to get away with not wearing hose, either. And I'm trying to figure out which ones to merge....
kateri05 Posted September 6, 2007 Posted September 6, 2007 oh i hate hose. they are way too manly for me to wear. plus, i pick at them all day. and i think this merges nicely right back into the pants thread on open mic. if you were taking votes
Sojourner Posted September 6, 2007 Posted September 6, 2007 [quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1378978' date='Sep 5 2007, 07:37 PM']Trust me, I try to get away with not wearing hose, either. And I'm trying to figure out which ones to merge....[/quote] It seems like a natural fit with the "pants are the devil" thread ...
AlterDominicus Posted September 6, 2007 Posted September 6, 2007 Proper clothing for Catholic Women is the [drum roll please] ........................................ ................. HABIT! : [img]http://www.sistersofmary.sistersofmary.org/images/right/NWMother.jpg[/img]
kateri05 Posted September 6, 2007 Posted September 6, 2007 (edited) [quote]It seems like a natural fit with the "pants are the devil" thread ...[/quote] terra, you read my mind. GET OUT OF MY HEAD!!!! Edited September 6, 2007 by kateri05
cmotherofpirl Posted September 6, 2007 Posted September 6, 2007 [quote name='kafka' post='1378896' date='Sep 5 2007, 08:53 PM']my friend wrote this: Proper Clothing for Catholic Women "A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman's garment; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD your God." (Deut 22:5). "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfil them. For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. Whever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." (Mt 5:17-19). Saint Padre Pio use to refuse to hear the confession of women who were wearing pants or an immodest dress. Women should not dress or act like men, for this is an abomination in God's eyes. God created the human race with two genders, intending each to have his and her proper place in Creation. Men and women are not meant to behave or dress the same manner. Part of the beauty of the human race is found in the differences between men and women. We each live within a larger society. We are each influenced by the culture around us. Yet society and culture often teach us false things, which lead us away from God. Most women (at least in Western society and culture) dress and act very much like men. They seek the same roles in society, the family, and the Church. They are following a popular teaching of our culture today, that women and men are meant to have the same roles, and especially that women are meant to take up roles formerly held only or mainly by men. They are displaying their adherence to this teaching by dressing like men. This teaching of our culture is contrary to the teaching of Christ. God wants men and women to act and dress according to their gender and the place God has given each one in Creation. Clothing and hairstyles are expressions of one's thoughts, behavior, and attitude. Women are not mean to behave like men, nor to have the same roles as men, therefore they should not dress or groom themselves like men. And vise versa. Women should wear skirts and dresses; they should not generally wear pants (although there may be some exception for certain sports, certain types of work, etc). Women should have longer hair than men; a woman's hair style should be feminine (not masculine and not androgenous). Women should dress and groom themselves in a feminine manner, to show that they accept the place God has given women in Creation, in society, in the family, and in the Church. Modesty is a separate issue. A woman wearing modest pants still offends God, not by lack of modesty, but by dressing like a man. A woman wearing an immodest skirt or dress offends God less than a woman wearing a modest pair of pants. The offense of a woman wearing pants is an offense against the very order which God built into Creation and humanity. The offense of a woman wearing men's clothing is called an abomination by Sacred Scripture. When a woman dresses and acts like a man, it is an offense against the very order which God built into Creation and human nature. God is offended, even more so, when women dress and act like men in churches and during holy Mass. By comparison, when a woman wears a short skirt, or a tight dress, her offense is only a matter of degree (the same skirt, if lengthened, might be considered modest). Such an offense is not intrinsically disordered -- it does not contradict or rebel against the fundamental order which God gave to Creation and humanity. But most women, and even most men, do not accept this teaching. They accept the teachings of their culture and ignore the teachings of Sacred Scripture. When the Church teaches one thing and their culture teaches another, they follow their culture instead of Christ. 12 Point Summary: First, male and female clothing was distinct during biblical times. The passage from Deuteronomy saying that men should not dress like women and women should not dress like men must have made sense to the Israelites. They lived the Scriptures before they wrote them down. Second, though men wore robes, women's dresses were distinctly different. Third, during New Testament times, Roman soldiers did wear trousers, so pants were known and were worn only by men. Fourth, for a very long time in the Church, men wore pants and women did not. This had become established within Christian culture as one of the main differences between men's and women's clothing. Only very recently has this difference been obscured. Fifth, Padre Pio would not even hear the confession of women who wore pants. Sixth, the passage from Deuteronomy specifically forbids unisex clothing. Even if some persons or many persons in ancient times dressed the same, Scripture is still true and must still be obeyed. Seventh, when the Virgin Mary appears in apparitions, she is always wearing a dress, never pants. All of the images and statues of her throughout the history of the Church present her wearing a dress, never pants. Eighth, when visiting the Pope or the Vatican, women are not permitted to wear pants. And they must wear a headcovering. When George Bush and his wife Laura visited the Pope recently, she wore a dress and a headcovering. Ninth, some Protestant groups still retain this insight, based on Scripture, that women should dress in a feminine manner, should not wear pants, and should wear a headcovering. Tenth, clothing is an expression of behavior and role. Even in our sinful society, clothing is still associated with roles, for example: police officers, judges, nurses, priests, nuns, and others wear particular clothing appropriate to and indicative of their roles. And one's clothing is also an indicator of behavior and attitude. For example, nuns who are obedient to the Church like to wear the habit, but those who are disobedient hate to wear it. Eleventh, men and women are meant to have different roles in the Church, the family, and society. Men and women are meant to have different behaviors. Clothing is an indicator and expression of that important difference. So, the more important thing is the correct roles and behaviors for men and women. That is the main point of that passage from Scripture. Twelfth, when a woman gives up wearing pants and strives to dress in a manner pleasing to Christ and Mary, even though the culture around her tells her otherwise, she will be blessed by God and her prayers will be answered.[/quote] Your friend has issues.
homeschoolmom Posted September 6, 2007 Posted September 6, 2007 [quote name='AlterDominicus' post='1378993' date='Sep 5 2007, 08:41 PM']Proper clothing for Catholic Women is the [drum roll please] ........................................ ................. HABIT! : [img]http://www.sistersofmary.sistersofmary.org/images/right/NWMother.jpg[/img][/quote] My husband would be really confused if he came home from work one day and I was wearing a habit.
cathoholic_anonymous Posted September 6, 2007 Posted September 6, 2007 [quote name='kafka' post='1378959' date='Sep 6 2007, 02:29 AM']"A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman's garment; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD your God." (Deut 22:5).[/quote] That's not the answer I asked for. I asked where God states that wearing 'men's clothing' (even if we accept that trousers are an exclusively male form of dress, which I don't) is worse than dressing immodestly.
rachael Posted September 6, 2007 Posted September 6, 2007 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1378995' date='Sep 5 2007, 08:43 PM']Your friend has issues.[/quote]
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