How would you like your Bible served Mam?

[ironmonk]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='Jun 3 2005, 04:31 PM'] IM, I think you need to tone it down a bit as well. It is many times difficult to speak and we do not when we should. Sometimes we even do when we should not. You two evidently have a history of animosity that I am not aware of. I don't think this is a good place to air it out. Peace bro. [/quote]
I think you're right. My patience has worn a little thin, it's hard for it not to get thin when people twist our words.

I'm sorry if my tone was more than needed to anyone.

The way I see things is that if the Church teaches "x" then the answer is x. One can only explain it so many different ways before the patience wears thin.

God Bless,
ironmonk

[thessalonian]

Monk above quite clearly said to do it with charity. Once again I think your animosity toward him is coloring the conversatoin. And this was just flat out wrong.

Telling a mother that "she killed her other children to have these" is neither gentle, caring or charitable

He never said it and you put it in quotes. Further you give out bits and pieces of the story and it comes accross to me the way IM took it as well. I know alot of people who never say anything period because they don't want to start and arguement and thta is the way your first post ended. Personally I think you did fine and I am glad I got the whole story, though I think something could have been said when you were holding the child, since she asked the questoin. I see max's approach to this thread as a bit harsh as well. I've met him personally and I know him to be a faithful Catholic, but bold. I've seen IM help people along the path to the Church. Paul did some pretty bold admonishing in his day. In 1 Cor 5 he came down hard on a man he didn't even know, giving his body over to satan, that his soul might be saved. I don't doudt you are faithful as well and your approach is different. You know the people and apparently knew how to handle it. Knew that you would be seeing them again and that it could be addressed later. I think we can just all take a step back and not be so arguementive on this thread, knowing that we all have strengths and weaknesses in our approaches. Lets try to make criticism constructive and not take so much offense. Words I can live by as well.

Peace

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Jun 3 2005, 04:54 PM'] I think that hot stuff has proven that you are judging.....

Incidentally Scardella, if it is the truth, it cannot be a fallacy...The truth is not an ad hominem.

Yes, change your tone....my tone is one of fraternal correction....as a certified Catechist, I am dutifly called to make these corrections to those who are not in keeping with the teaching of the Church.

Cam [/quote]
Knowing IM more than I know hot stuff I have tried to be objective. I see where both sides are wrong. I really in the context of the thread see nothing wrong with IM's first post based on what he knew of the situation (which later came out in more detail, and it appears hot stuff handled it fine). I think hot stuff's difficulties with IM colored his posts thereafter and I think it was wrong to put in quotes something that would have been harsh to say to the woman but IM never came close to suggesting. I was hopeing this thread would get on to Sola Scriptura but that has gotten sidetracked. No takers anyway from the other side.

Blessings

[ironmonk]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Jun 3 2005, 06:18 PM'] It was the arrogant that he verbally called to task. Nowhere can you find where Christ verbally confronted anyone's sinful behavior if they were humble or vulnerable. [/quote]
This is incorrect.

Christ and the Apostels did not tell people they did wrong when people knew they did wrong and were repentant. If someone did wrong when they thought they were right they were corrected.

Your reply is something you might want to meditate on and ask yourself why so defensive if you are correct. I did not twist your writings, I wrote that you were wrong, and even gave you the Church writings to explain that point.

Please show me what you speak of in Church writings and I will believe that you did right. I do not recall ever seeing it written anywhere that we are to let people go on thinking that they are correct when they are wrong about Church teachings.


God Bless,
ironmonk

Edited June 3, 2005 by ironmonk

[ironmonk]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='Jun 3 2005, 07:00 PM'] Monk above quite clearly said to do it with charity. Once again I think your animosity toward him is coloring the conversatoin. And this was just flat out wrong.

Telling a mother that "she killed her other children to have these" is neither gentle, caring or charitable

He never said it and you put it in quotes. Further you give out bits and pieces of the story and it comes accross to me the way IM took it as well. I know alot of people who never say anything period because they don't want to start and arguement and thta is the way your first post ended. Personally I think you did fine and I am glad I got the whole story, though I think something could have been said when you were holding the child, since she asked the questoin. I see max's approach to this thread as a bit harsh as well. I've met him personally and I know him to be a faithful Catholic, but bold. I've seen IM help people along the path to the Church. Paul did some pretty bold admonishing in his day. In 1 Cor 5 he came down hard on a man he didn't even know, giving his body over to satan, that his soul might be saved. I don't doudt you are faithful as well and your approach is different. You know the people and apparently knew how to handle it. Knew that you would be seeing them again and that it could be addressed later. I think we can just all take a step back and not be so arguementive on this thread, knowing that we all have strengths and weaknesses in our approaches. Lets try to make criticism constructive and not take so much offense. Words I can live by as well.

Peace [/quote]
I wasn't saying to say that.

I was saying that when she asked "Why is this wrong", to explain that other unborn children die in the process.

If she wouldn't have asked, then it would not have been the time or place, but she asked.

A simple, let's talk about that later or maybe you should ask a priest would have sufficed. I do not think not saying anything was the "right" answer.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Jun 3 2005, 05:09 PM'] I wasn't saying to say that.

I was saying that when she asked "Why is this wrong", to explain that other unborn children die in the process.

If she wouldn't have asked, then it would not have been the time or place, but she asked.

A simple, let's talk about that later or maybe you should ask a priest would have sufficed. I do not think not saying anything was the "right" answer.


God Bless,
ironmonk [/quote]
And yet that's not something you can judge, not knowing these people and not having been there. As hot stuff said, he told them to go to confession when the topic was broached at a later time. That's charity and there's nothing wrong with it. Being sensitive to the feelings of other people goes a long way in helping to correct their mistakes.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='KizlarAgha' date='Jun 3 2005, 05:11 PM'] And yet that's not something you can judge, not knowing these people and not having been there. As hot stuff said, he told them to go to confession when the topic was broached at a later time. That's charity and there's nothing wrong with it. Being sensitive to the feelings of other people goes a long way in helping to correct their mistakes. [/quote]
Kizlar, I really don't see what your arguing about. I see nothing wrong with IM's post. It is good to admonish others to admonish others. I'm glad hot stuff did the right thing. I do think the question should have been answered gently at the time as well. But later he took care of it.

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='Jun 3 2005, 06:00 PM'] Kizlar, I really don't see what your arguing about. I see nothing wrong with IM's post. It is good to admonish others to admonish others. I'm glad hot stuff did the right thing. I do think the question should have been answered gently at the time as well. But later he took care of it. [/quote]
What I'm arguing is maybe you shouldn't be claiming to know what was "right" and "wrong" for the given situation. You weren't present, you don't know the people.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='KizlarAgha' date='Jun 3 2005, 06:04 PM'] What I'm arguing is maybe you shouldn't be claiming to know what was "right" and "wrong" for the given situation.  You weren't present, you don't know the people. [/quote]
This is a discussion board. The topic currently is admonishing the sinner. That we have a real life example doesn't change the need to practice the work of mercy and to have it explained. To that end I don't think your interjections have helped much. Perhaps you would care to expound on your knowledge of the Catholic faith in this area. I see IM's posts as a bold stating of the neglect of this work of MERCY. Somebody needs to speak out. Read the post I did above about Bishop Sheen and how dangerous thinking well look at how happy these two gay people are or this couple that has these three little children. Or Oh, this is going to cure parkinsons and my friend will walk as the thread started drew a person formally opposed to this grave moral evil.

Further, here is where I think hot stuff errer. Would if he had woke up the next morning or a day or two later and opened the paper and low and behold there was a car accident and there was one of the two couples (by the way hot stuff did you get around to talking to the other one. I think there were two sets of triplets.). Both died. Ooops. Bit late. Gasp. I know it would haunt me long afterward. That is the danger of not saying something when he had a perfect opportunity. I'm glad it worked out though.


God bless

Edited June 4, 2005 by thessalonian

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='Jun 3 2005, 07:27 PM'] This is a discussion board. The topic currently is admonishing the sinner. That we have a real life example doesn't change the need to practice the work of mercy and to have it explained. To that end I don't think your interjections have helped much. Perhaps you would care to expound on your knowledge of the Catholic faith in this area. I see IM's posts as a bold stating of the neglect of this work of MERCY. Somebody needs to speak out. Read the post I did above about Bishop Sheen and how dangerous thinking well look at how happy these two gay people are or this couple that has these three little children. Or Oh, this is going to cure parkinsons and my friend will walk as the thread started drew a person formally opposed to this grave moral evil.

Further, here is where I think hot stuff errer. Would if he had woke up the next morning or a day or two later and opened the paper and low and behold there was a car accident and there was one of the two couples (by the way hot stuff did you get around to talking to the other one. I think there were two sets of triplets.). Both died. Ooops. Bit late. Gasp. I know it would haunt me long afterward. That is the danger of not saying something when he had a perfect opportunity. I'm glad it worked out though.


God bless [/quote]
Now you're just being stupid. You don't know if hot stuff corrected them on the same occasion or at a later date. You don't know the exact circumstances involved. Your monday morning quaterbacking is precisely what isn't helpful with this issue. The fact is, you wouldn't know tact if it swam up and bit you on the...well there you go.

[bookwyrm]

Chill, people.

[Jaime]

[quote]Christ and the Apostels did not tell people they did wrong when people knew they did wrong and were repentant. If someone did wrong when they thought they were right they were corrected.[/quote]

Ironmonk I believe we are saying essentially the same thing.

Examples of when Christ was directly admonished sinners who were arrogant

Expelling the moneychangers from the temple
Calling the pharisees a "brood of vipers"
Telling Peter to "Get behind me Satan"

Even more so with the chief priests of the temple when he told the parable of the two sons

[quote] 28"What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, 'Son, go and work today in the vineyard.'

29" 'I will not,' he answered, but later he changed his mind and went.

    30"Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, 'I will, sir,' but he did not go.

    31"Which of the two did what his father wanted?"
      "The first," they answered.

  Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. 32For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him. [/quote]

Where did Jesus admonish with love and mercy?

The adulterous woman (John 8:1). There is nothing to show that she was repentant. She well may have been. But she was vulnerable.

Zaccheus the Tax collector. Again while we don't know if he was repentant, scripture shows us that he was humble. It is our understanding that Zaccheus's life changed demonstrably after Christ called him down from the tree.

When people came to Christ seeking knowledge, he taught them through parables.



[quote]I do not recall ever seeing it written anywhere that we are to let people go on thinking that they are correct when they are wrong about Church teachings.[/quote]

You've quoted the Catechism. The Church is correct that we are called to admonish the sinner. However there is nothing in Mother Church's teaching that states that it must be immediate in every instance.

I don't get defensive by your responses Ironmonk. I am responding with the same directness and harshness you use with me and with others. There are too many young people who are trying to discern the best way to share their faith with others. Your comments do come across to myself and others as uncharitable. The perception that we are left with is "Here is the Church's teaching. If you do not accept it, you're loss. I'm done with you" and I am extremely concerned that the teens who participate will see that this is the best and only way to deal with other sinners.

Thessalonian I am sorry that your thread got hijacked from "Sola Scriptura" I will take ownership of my part in it. I think it is critical to discuss "how" we admonish sinners and I used your thread as a platform. If Ironmonk is willing, we can further that discussion on the thread he started earlier using his quotes as examples

God bless
hot stuff

[thessalonian]

[quote name='KizlarAgha' date='Jun 3 2005, 07:45 PM'] Now you're just being stupid.  You don't know if hot stuff corrected them on the same occasion or at a later date.  You don't know the exact circumstances involved.  Your monday morning quaterbacking is precisely what isn't helpful with this issue.  The fact is, you wouldn't know tact if it swam up and bit you on the...well there you go. [/quote]


You know me well enough to be making such claims? You've watched me in action ripping in to sinners? Seems your doing a fine job of committing the same infraction you accuse us of, complete with ad hom attacks on me. I've been attacked with better insults than your dishing out on these boards. Tact eh? Seems your having trouble with the definition yourself.

God bless Kilzar. Peace. :wave:

Edited June 4, 2005 by thessalonian

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='Jun 3 2005, 08:54 PM'] God bless Kilzar. [/quote]

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='Jun 3 2005, 08:54 PM']

You know me well enough to be making such claims. Seems your doing a fine job of committing the same infraction you accuse us of, complete with ad hom attacks on me. I've been attacked with better insults than your dishing out on these boards. Tact eh? Seems your having trouble with the definition yourself.

God bless Kilzar. [/quote]
Aww come on. You got the joke the first time and laughed. And now you're being rude. Jeez...and here I thought we'd reached an understanding of sorts.

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='Jun 3 2005, 08:54 PM']

You know me well enough to be making such claims? You've watched me in action ripping in to sinners? Seems your doing a fine job of committing the same infraction you accuse us of, complete with ad hom attacks on me. I've been attacked with better insults than your dishing out on these boards. Tact eh? Seems your having trouble with the definition yourself.

God bless Kilzar. Peace. :wave: [/quote]
Editing it again are we? This time you've included peace after leaving in the insulting part. Is that a joke?

[thessalonian]

Blessings Edited June 4, 2005 by thessalonian

[thessalonian]

hot stuff,

I do have a couple of questions. Did you talk to both the mothers? Also how would you have felt if, having delayed talking to them, they had gotten in to a car accident and died before you had another opportunity? You say they were very very Catholic and this was a grave offense.

Blessings

[Jaime]

[quote]Did you talk to both the mothers?[/quote]

yup


[quote]Also how would you have felt if, having delayed talking to them, they had gotten in to a car accident and died before you had another opportunity?[/quote]

Horrible, I would pray for their souls

How would I feel if one of them had a car accident today and died? Horrible, I would pray for their souls.

Both of them knew as well as I what the Church teaching was. I've known these women for many years and they take their faith very seriously. So seriously that for five years they desparately strived to keep their vow to the Church of bringing children in the world. It wasn't just the instinctual desire to procreate that drove them. It was their desire to fulfill their promise to God on their wedding day. As you well know Thess, you were called to affirm that vow as well.

According to the Church, what these couples did "may be less reprehensible but still gravely sinful". But it is not an offense for excommunication. I do not condone their actions nor do I justify them. I do empathize with them. The desire to procreate is not just a psychological impulse, it is a biological drive. For many it is overwhelming.

Both couples knew they were committing a sin. They did not need me to tell them that. I wouldn't tell them that they were justified in their actions. By not answering the question "How could this be wrong" which was quite clearly an emotional question at the moment, they knew they had my love and support and they knew that I was not condoning the in vitro act. Absolutely nothing good would come out of being direct with them at that moment. When the emotions of the moment (and the huge amount of hormones going through the mothers at the time) abated, we talked about how they could reconcile with the Church.

Just as if a close friend gave birth out of wedlock, I would choose my first time meeting the child to be a celebration of that child's existence. I would not see it as an opportunity for admonishing the sinful actions that brought the child into the world.

[Cam42]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Jun 4 2005, 09:03 AM']
yup




Horrible, I would pray for their souls

How would I feel if one of them had a car accident today and died?  Horrible, I would pray for their souls.

Both of them knew as well as I what the Church teaching was.  I've known these women for many years and they take their faith very seriously.  So seriously that for five years they desparately strived to keep their vow  to the Church of bringing children in the world.  It wasn't just the instinctual desire to procreate that drove them.  It was their desire to fulfill their promise to God on their wedding day. As you well know Thess, you were called to affirm that vow as well. 

According to the Church, what these couples did "may be less reprehensible but still gravely sinful".  But it is not an offense for excommunication.  I do not condone their actions nor do I justify them.  I do empathize with them.  The desire to procreate is not just a psychological impulse, it is a biological drive.  For many it is overwhelming. 

Both couples knew they were committing a sin.  They did not need me to tell them that. I wouldn't tell them that they were justified in their actions.  By not answering the question "How could this be wrong" which was quite clearly an emotional question at the moment, they knew they had my love and support and they knew that I was not condoning the in vitro act.  Absolutely nothing good would come out of being direct with them at that moment.  When the emotions of the moment (and the huge amount of hormones going through the mothers at the time) abated, we talked about how they could reconcile with the Church. 

Just as if a close friend gave birth out of wedlock, I would choose my first time meeting the child to be a celebration of that child's existence. I would not see it as an opportunity for admonishing the sinful actions that brought the child into the world. [/quote]
You mean to tell me that you didn't drag those women into another room by their hair and admonish them, seriously for being sinners and that their children weren't born out of love, but selfish.....































Oh wait.....I am on your side....yeah, you're right, that conversation probably wouldn't need to be that harsh and it most certainly wouldn't need to happen in that manner, huh?

Cam