How would you like your Bible served Mam?

[ironmonk]

[quote name='KizlarAgha' date='Jun 3 2005, 02:56 AM'] Ok Thess,

Get off your high horse.  I don't need to see "very catholic" in quotation marks from you.  So the people sinned.  Everyone sins.  It doesn't take away from their being Catholic any more than your sins eject you from the Church. [/quote]
I have known Thess since I started in Apologetics. I have never known him to have a 'high horse'. The man is on of the most honorable humble people that I have ever met. His intentions are to help others attain salvation.

It seems that some here do not realize that the only time we loose in an argument is when we do not accept the truth with open arms and a smile.

Even if I'm wrong in an argument, I win in the argument when I learn and accept the truth.

Now for Catholic teaching:

[b]CCC 1829 [/b]
The fruits of charity are joy, peace, and mercy; [u]charity demands beneficence and fraternal correction[/u]; it is benevolence; it fosters reciprocity and remains disinterested and generous; it is friendship and communion:


Love is itself the fulfillment of all our works. There is the goal; that is why we run: we run toward it, and once we reach it, in it we shall find rest.108

[b]CCC 1435 [/b]
Conversion is accomplished in daily life by gestures of reconciliation, concern for the poor, the exercise and defense of justice and right,33 by the admission of faults to one's brethren, fraternal correction, revision of life, examination of conscience, spiritual direction, acceptance of suffering, endurance of persecution for the sake of righteousness. Taking up one's cross each day and following Jesus is the surest way of penance.34


[b]Proverbs 12:1[/b]
He who loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.


[b]Proverbs 13:1 [/b]
A wise son loves correction, but the senseless one heeds no rebuke.
...
[b]18 [/b]Poverty and shame befall the man who disregards correction, but he who heeds reproof is honored.

[b]Sirach 21:6[/b]
He who hates correction walks the sinner's path, but he who fears the LORD repents in his heart.




God Bless,
ironmonk

Edited June 3, 2005 by ironmonk

[Jaime]

[quote]I say you owe IM an apology for calling him heartless. Admonishing the sinner in a gentle way is not heartless.[/quote]

Telling a mother that "she killed her other children to have these" is neither gentle, caring or charitable. Apologize to Ironmonk? Highly doubtful. Hey don't get me wrong, I've got no problem apologizing to folks if I've offended them or hurt their feelings. However, Ironmonk's has demonstrated absolutely no respect, empathy or charity with anyone who has ever offered a differing opinion.

"You do not know your faith as well as you think you do"
"Your blood is not on my hands"
" I shake the dust off from my sandals"
"Anyone who believes (insert anything) is stupid"

These are just a few examples of statements he has made to others on this site. None of which resulted in an apology. None of which showed any empathy or charity, only arrogance and condescension. Ironmonk's heartlessness is demonstrated well beyond this thread.

Let's take a look at my personal example shall we? Both mothers came back to talk to me about the Church's views on their actions when the children weren't around. My suggestion at that point? "Why don't you go to confession?" Both took my advice and I consider the issue closed with both of them. If I had taking the unloving approach used regularly by Ironmonk, they would have never broached the subject with me again. I wouldn't have had the opportunity to suggest confession as a course of action.

Admonish the sinner? Fine.

1 Timothy 1:5

But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.

6For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion,

7wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions.

Learning the teachings of the Church properly, expands our capacity of love empathy and charity. If one has learned the dogmas and disciplines of Mother Church and cannot demonstrate these virtues, then that person has not learned anything. That person is the proverbial gong noisily clanging in the wind!

Edited June 3, 2005 by jaime

[ironmonk]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Jun 3 2005, 09:26 AM']
Telling a mother that "she killed her other children to have these" is neither gentle, caring or charitable.  Apologize to Ironmonk?  Highly doubtful.  Hey don't get me wrong, I've got no problem apologizing to folks if I've offended them or hurt their feelings.  However, Ironmonk's has demonstrated absolutely no respect, empathy or charity with anyone who has ever offered a differing opinion. 

"You do not know your faith as well as you think you do"
"Your blood is not on my hands"
" I shake the dust off from my sandals"
"Anyone who believes (insert anything) is stupid"

These are just a few examples of statements he has made to others on this site.  None of which resulted in an apology.  None of which showed any empathy or charity, only arrogance and condescension.  Ironmonk's heartlessness is demonstrated well beyond this thread.

Let's take a look at my personal example shall we?  Both mothers came back to talk to me about the Church's views on their actions when the children weren't around.  My suggestion at that point?  "Why don't you go to confession?"  Both took my advice and I consider the issue closed with both of them.  If I had taking the unloving approach used regularly by Ironmonk, they would have never broached the subject with me again.  I wouldn't have had the opportunity to suggest confession as a course of action. 

Admonish the sinner?  Fine. 

1 Timothy 1:5

But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.

  6For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion,

  7wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions.

Learning the teachings of the Church properly, expands our capacity of love empathy and charity. If one has learned the dogmas and disciplines of Mother Church and cannot demonstrate these virtues, then that person has not learned anything.  That person is the proverbial gong noisily clanging in the wind! [/quote]
J...

Great way to again take things out of context. Context Context Context...

Charity [u][b]demands [/b][/u]correction. That is a Church teaching from the Catechism. Obviously you do not know what charity is. Charity is not being a jellyfish without backbone when someone is obstinant to Church teachings. We are to shake our sandles off if people refuse to listen to the teachings of the Church. Maybe if you would read the Scriptures and Catechism a few times you would have a better understanding of the faith. It is a sin against charity to allow someone to believe a mortal sin is morally acceptable and the blood is on your head. We are our brothers keeper.

If anyone disagrees with Church teachings, they are being foolish.

Maybe you don't like facts, maybe you want to live a delusion and try to shape Catholicism to your personal desires.... but then it wouldn't be Catholicism.

"Nothing is finer than standing on the vantage ground of Truth"... since you are not standing on it, you lash out. You loose when you do not accept the truth. You could win by accepting the Church's truth.


You did wrong by not saying anything when she asked. If she would not have asked, it would not have been the time or the place. If you knew they were going to have in-vitro before they did it, then you should have said something then... you could have explained it and guided them to a Catholic source so that they could learn. They should to talk to a priest about it and need to attend confession for it. If they do not and they take the Eucharist, then they profane the Body of Christ. You take part in the profaning by not speaking up. A sincere, "you should talk to a priest about it" would be enough.

Theological dicussions are about theology, what is right and wrong. A lot of the time it's black and white. Because you don't like bluntness, especially when you are wrong, you take it as "uncharitable" - which just goes to show that you are unaware of what true charity is.

[quote]
[b]CCC 1829 [/b]
The fruits of charity are joy, peace, and mercy; [b][i][u]charity demands beneficence and fraternal correction[/u][/i][/b]; it is benevolence; it fosters reciprocity and remains disinterested and generous; it is friendship and communion:

Love is itself the fulfillment of all our works. There is the goal; that is why we run: we run toward it, and once we reach it, in it we shall find rest.108[/quote]


Why do I take time to reply to your misconceptions? Because of charity... it demands correction. Because I love Christ. Because things are not up to us when it comes to right and wrong, they are decided by God and taught to us through His Church - The Pillar and Foundation of Truth; 1 Tim 3:15 - Never to be overcome; St. Matt 16:18.


By your very statements and actions go against Charity - If I remember correctly you speak of hypocrisy on another thread - you appear to know it well.


One more thing:

[quote]"You do not know your faith as well as you think you do"[/quote]

Why would someone say that? Maybe I am wrong. Maybe I should look up the teaching and either change for Christ or correct my brother.

[quote]"Your blood is not on my hands"[/quote]

Why would someone say that? Am I being obstinate to Church teachings? Maybe I am wrong. Maybe I should look up the teaching and either change for Christ or correct my brother.

[quote]" I shake the dust off from my sandals"[/quote]
Why would someone say that? Am I being obstinate to Church teachings? Maybe I am wrong. Maybe I should look up the teaching and either change for Christ or correct my brother. Mabye he wrote something that I missed? He must not have anything else to show of Church teachings.



[quote]"Anyone who believes (insert anything) is stupid"[/quote]
Why would someone say that? Am I being obstinate to Church teachings? Maybe I am wrong. Maybe I should look up the teaching and either change for Christ or correct my brother. It is stupid, and foolish to go against the Church. Why does he feel so strongly that he knows what the Church teachings in this regard? He needs to be corrected with Church documents so that he can learn the Truth - Or do I?




God Bless,
ironmonk

Edited June 3, 2005 by ironmonk

[Cam42]

[quote]Charity demands correction. That is a Church teaching from the Catechism. Obviously you do not know what charity is. Charity is not being a jellyfish without backbone when someone is obstinant to Church teachings. We are to shake our sandles off if people refuse to listen to the teachings of the Church. Maybe if you would read the Scriptures and Catechism a few times you would have a better understanding of the faith. It is a sin against charity to allow someone to believe a mortal sin is morally acceptable and the blood is on your head. We are our brothers keeper.[/quote]

And who are you to judge like that? That is incredibly uncharitable. Is that a saintly way to talk about another person?

NO IT IS NOT!!!!! You are right charity demands correction. However, you are the one in needing of correction.

[quote]Without the help of grace, men would not know how "to discern the often narrow path between the cowardice which gives in to evil, and the violence which under the illusion of fighting evil only makes it worse." This is the path of charity, that is, of the love of God and of neighbor. Charity is the greatest social commandment. It respects others and their rights. It requires the practice of justice, and it alone makes us capable of it. Charity inspires a life of self-giving: "Whoever seeks to gain his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will preserve it."  (CCC 1889)[/quote]

What you just said to hot stuff is not full of grace nor is it narrowing the pation between cowardice and violence. That statement only makes it worse. Respect of others. hot stuff said that he counselled those to go to confession. Once that was done, he considered the matter dropped. It is not for him to judge. Apparently it is for you though. Show me where?

You are the one who needs to get back in scripture and the Catechism. You are the one who needs to re-read. You are not promoting the Catholic ideal....you are promoting the Catholic stereotype.

Grow up. Charity isn't beating one over the head with the Church, it is loving one with the Church. Justice and the practice of it......you are not acting in a just way....you are acting in an accusatory and unjust way.

Change your ways....you are alienating people.

You wanted charity to be demanded....here it is....we love you. You need to change your tone. You are not accomplishing anything other than promoting the stereotype. I would stop being stereotypical and start being just.

Cam

[scardella]

I think it's easy to forget that there are real people on the other end of things that we type. The same courtesy that is called for in verbal debate is called for on the forum. [b]This is about the issues, NOT about insulting people for their views.[/b]

Don't fall into the [i]ad hominem[/i] trap. We are to [b]fraternally[/b] correct. That means using tact (something I'm much better at online, apparently).

[quote] "If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that 'every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.' If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector."
- Mt. 18:15-17[/quote]

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Jun 3 2005, 11:13 AM']
And who are you to judge like that?  That is incredibly uncharitable.  Is that a saintly way to talk about another person?

NO IT IS NOT!!!!!  You are right charity demands correction.  However, you are the one in needing of correction.



What you just said to hot stuff is not full of grace nor is it narrowing the pation between cowardice and violence.  That statement only makes it worse.  Respect of others.  hot stuff said that he counselled those to go to confession.  Once that was done, he considered the matter dropped.  It is not for him to judge.  Apparently it is for you though.  Show me where?

You are the one who needs to get back in scripture and the Catechism.  You are the one who needs to re-read.  You are not promoting the Catholic ideal....you are promoting the Catholic stereotype.

Grow up.  Charity isn't beating one over the head with the Church, it is loving one with the Church.  Justice and the practice of it......you are not acting in a just way....you are acting in an accusatory and unjust way.

Change your ways....you are alienating people.

You wanted charity to be demanded....here it is....we love you.  You need to change your tone.  You are not accomplishing anything other than promoting the stereotype.  I would stop being stereotypical and start being just.

Cam [/quote]
You are wrong.

It was nothing about judging. Stating that it would be uncharitable to correct was wrong shows that one does not know charity. It is pretty clear.

Again, you take out of context.

Tone... change your tone. You should take your own advice.

Edited June 3, 2005 by ironmonk

[thessalonian]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Jun 3 2005, 07:26 AM']
Telling a mother that "she killed her other children to have these" is neither gentle, caring or charitable. Apologize to Ironmonk? Highly doubtful. Hey don't get me wrong, I've got no problem apologizing to folks if I've offended them or hurt their feelings. However, Ironmonk's has demonstrated absolutely no respect, empathy or charity with anyone who has ever offered a differing opinion.

"You do not know your faith as well as you think you do"
"Your blood is not on my hands"
" I shake the dust off from my sandals"
"Anyone who believes (insert anything) is stupid"

These are just a few examples of statements he has made to others on this site. None of which resulted in an apology. None of which showed any empathy or charity, only arrogance and condescension. Ironmonk's heartlessness is demonstrated well beyond this thread.

Let's take a look at my personal example shall we? Both mothers came back to talk to me about the Church's views on their actions when the children weren't around. My suggestion at that point? "Why don't you go to confession?" Both took my advice and I consider the issue closed with both of them. If I had taking the unloving approach used regularly by Ironmonk, they would have never broached the subject with me again. I wouldn't have had the opportunity to suggest confession as a course of action.

Admonish the sinner? Fine.

1 Timothy 1:5

But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.

6For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion,

7wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions.

Learning the teachings of the Church properly, expands our capacity of love empathy and charity. If one has learned the dogmas and disciplines of Mother Church and cannot demonstrate these virtues, then that person has not learned anything. That person is the proverbial gong noisily clanging in the wind! [/quote]
You put "telling her that she killed her other children to have these in quotes". Perhaps I missed it but I don't see where IM said that. Did you cut and past it. He never told you what to say to my recollection and I went back and checked. He just said invirtro kills other children and 9 times out of ten it does. That you had a special case where triplets were delivered is not his fault. Then you twisted the story to say that the mother was holding the kids. Why? Now you add addtional information. I am glad you suggested confession. BUt YOU HAVE DISTORTED WHAT IM and I HAVE SAID IN THIS THREAD. If you want to bring up grudges feel free to do so on someone else's thread. I think your behavior on this thread is rather poor.

[thessalonian]

IM, I think you need to tone it down a bit as well. It is many times difficult to speak and we do not when we should. Sometimes we even do when we should not. You two evidently have a history of animosity that I am not aware of. I don't think this is a good place to air it out. Peace bro.

[Jaime]

The exact quote was

[quote]To have those children, other children of theirs had to die[/quote]

Did I paraphrase? Yes. Did I distort? I guess that is a matter of opinion. It certainly isn't out of context with either version.



[quote]Then you twisted the story to say that the mother was holding the kids. [/quote]

No I believe I stated (and its true) that I was holding one of the children. If it is bothersome that I shared the beginning of the story and then shared the conclusion later, well, my apologies. The whole story is true. It was not meant to be manipulation. It was not a trap set. I was sharing a similar experience in dealing with someone (or two) whom I love dearly and had gone through five years of agony trying to have children. If I recall Thessalonian, you have children yourself. I would imagine that your experience gives you even greater insight into the pain they endured.

The rest of the story came out simply because Ironmonk said I was wrong. Period end of statement. "They've sinned. Tell them now!" (again so no one has to search, I am paraphrasing) Am I going to take that personally? Oh you can bet on that.

I have not distorted anything that either of you have said. Ironmonk (and apparently others) believe that I was wrong in how I handled the situation. Ironmonk is flat out wrong. To do anything other than what I did would have been a sin. I am as aware of Church teachings as anyone here. The teachings are correct. However, aside from the teachings we must have a model. An example. It is from the model that we learn the best application of the teachings.

Using Christ as the best model for everything (including admonishing sinners) we see the appropriate way to live out the teachings of the Church. How did Christ admonish the sinner?

He admonished the arrogant with righteousness
He admonished the sorrowful with mercy
He admonished the broken with love

It was the arrogant that he verbally called to task. Nowhere can you find where Christ verbally confronted anyone's sinful behavior if they were humble or vulnerable.

[Cam42]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Jun 3 2005, 09:43 AM'] You are wrong.

It was nothing about judging. Stating that it would be uncharitable to correct was wrong shows that one does not know charity. It is pretty clear.

Again, you take out of context.

Tone... change your tone. You should take your own advice. [/quote]
I think that hot stuff has proven that you are judging.....

Incidentally Scardella, if it is the truth, it cannot be a fallacy...The truth is not an ad hominem.

Yes, change your tone....my tone is one of fraternal correction....as a certified Catechist, I am dutifly called to make these corrections to those who are not in keeping with the teaching of the Church.

Cam

[ironmonk]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='Jun 3 2005, 04:31 PM'] IM, I think you need to tone it down a bit as well. It is many times difficult to speak and we do not when we should. Sometimes we even do when we should not. You two evidently have a history of animosity that I am not aware of. I don't think this is a good place to air it out. Peace bro. [/quote]
I think you're right. My patience has worn a little thin, it's hard for it not to get thin when people twist our words.

I'm sorry if my tone was more than needed to anyone.

The way I see things is that if the Church teaches "x" then the answer is x. One can only explain it so many different ways before the patience wears thin.

God Bless,
ironmonk

[thessalonian]

Monk above quite clearly said to do it with charity. Once again I think your animosity toward him is coloring the conversatoin. And this was just flat out wrong.

Telling a mother that "she killed her other children to have these" is neither gentle, caring or charitable

He never said it and you put it in quotes. Further you give out bits and pieces of the story and it comes accross to me the way IM took it as well. I know alot of people who never say anything period because they don't want to start and arguement and thta is the way your first post ended. Personally I think you did fine and I am glad I got the whole story, though I think something could have been said when you were holding the child, since she asked the questoin. I see max's approach to this thread as a bit harsh as well. I've met him personally and I know him to be a faithful Catholic, but bold. I've seen IM help people along the path to the Church. Paul did some pretty bold admonishing in his day. In 1 Cor 5 he came down hard on a man he didn't even know, giving his body over to satan, that his soul might be saved. I don't doudt you are faithful as well and your approach is different. You know the people and apparently knew how to handle it. Knew that you would be seeing them again and that it could be addressed later. I think we can just all take a step back and not be so arguementive on this thread, knowing that we all have strengths and weaknesses in our approaches. Lets try to make criticism constructive and not take so much offense. Words I can live by as well.

Peace

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Jun 3 2005, 04:54 PM'] I think that hot stuff has proven that you are judging.....

Incidentally Scardella, if it is the truth, it cannot be a fallacy...The truth is not an ad hominem.

Yes, change your tone....my tone is one of fraternal correction....as a certified Catechist, I am dutifly called to make these corrections to those who are not in keeping with the teaching of the Church.

Cam [/quote]
Knowing IM more than I know hot stuff I have tried to be objective. I see where both sides are wrong. I really in the context of the thread see nothing wrong with IM's first post based on what he knew of the situation (which later came out in more detail, and it appears hot stuff handled it fine). I think hot stuff's difficulties with IM colored his posts thereafter and I think it was wrong to put in quotes something that would have been harsh to say to the woman but IM never came close to suggesting. I was hopeing this thread would get on to Sola Scriptura but that has gotten sidetracked. No takers anyway from the other side.

Blessings

[ironmonk]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Jun 3 2005, 06:18 PM'] It was the arrogant that he verbally called to task. Nowhere can you find where Christ verbally confronted anyone's sinful behavior if they were humble or vulnerable. [/quote]
This is incorrect.

Christ and the Apostels did not tell people they did wrong when people knew they did wrong and were repentant. If someone did wrong when they thought they were right they were corrected.

Your reply is something you might want to meditate on and ask yourself why so defensive if you are correct. I did not twist your writings, I wrote that you were wrong, and even gave you the Church writings to explain that point.

Please show me what you speak of in Church writings and I will believe that you did right. I do not recall ever seeing it written anywhere that we are to let people go on thinking that they are correct when they are wrong about Church teachings.


God Bless,
ironmonk

Edited June 3, 2005 by ironmonk

[ironmonk]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='Jun 3 2005, 07:00 PM'] Monk above quite clearly said to do it with charity. Once again I think your animosity toward him is coloring the conversatoin. And this was just flat out wrong.

Telling a mother that "she killed her other children to have these" is neither gentle, caring or charitable

He never said it and you put it in quotes. Further you give out bits and pieces of the story and it comes accross to me the way IM took it as well. I know alot of people who never say anything period because they don't want to start and arguement and thta is the way your first post ended. Personally I think you did fine and I am glad I got the whole story, though I think something could have been said when you were holding the child, since she asked the questoin. I see max's approach to this thread as a bit harsh as well. I've met him personally and I know him to be a faithful Catholic, but bold. I've seen IM help people along the path to the Church. Paul did some pretty bold admonishing in his day. In 1 Cor 5 he came down hard on a man he didn't even know, giving his body over to satan, that his soul might be saved. I don't doudt you are faithful as well and your approach is different. You know the people and apparently knew how to handle it. Knew that you would be seeing them again and that it could be addressed later. I think we can just all take a step back and not be so arguementive on this thread, knowing that we all have strengths and weaknesses in our approaches. Lets try to make criticism constructive and not take so much offense. Words I can live by as well.

Peace [/quote]
I wasn't saying to say that.

I was saying that when she asked "Why is this wrong", to explain that other unborn children die in the process.

If she wouldn't have asked, then it would not have been the time or place, but she asked.

A simple, let's talk about that later or maybe you should ask a priest would have sufficed. I do not think not saying anything was the "right" answer.


God Bless,
ironmonk