philothea Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 I have been curious about this since I arrived here. I do not yet have an opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 This has been debated in the past. I think it is important to properly define "patriotism." Patriotism is love for one's country, and is a natural virtue, akin to love for one's family. It is not blind support for whatever the current policies of one's country are at the time, nor should it take precidence over loyalty to God and His Church. But in its proper place and properly understood, patriotism is a virtue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 Seconding Socartes's statement, I'm sorry I cannot remember where the Church made that statement. However, it's a virtue. It can be corrupted in many ways (thinking your nation is perfect (not possible), or thinking your country is more favored by God (Americanism)). However, it is still a virtue, and you can tell that when a man is not patriotic, he is also not very faithful and obedient. I'm not saying those who don't love their country are bad, but lacking any virtue is just one more weak spot for senior Satan and the demonic gang. God bless, Mikey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KizlarAgha Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 Patriotism is never acceptable. Your only patriotism should be to the Holy See. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 Patriotism is based on loving our country. When we love our friends, regardless of how twisted and maligned they are, we love them not because we admire all of their traits or actions, but because we want what's best for them. That's love, and when a country is the object, that's patriotism. Patriotism is that which makes us want to make our homeland on earth like our true homeland in Heaven. Patriotism is always a virtue...but there is an evil, twisted form of it, which is nationalism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 Kizlar... where does the Church say THAT. And furthermore, an attitude like that justified the English mistreatment of Catholics on a political level especially post-Reformation, and it was completely false. That kind of attitude is also portrayed in such publications as "Why Catholics Cannot be Good Citizens". It's completely Anglican in nature and totally false. If the Ironmonk train catches this thread, he maybe able to add some very informative stuff. God bless, Mikey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KizlarAgha Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 [quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Jun 2 2005, 08:33 PM'] Kizlar... where does the Church say THAT. And furthermore, an attitude like that justified the English mistreatment of Catholics on a political level especially post-Reformation, and it was completely false. That kind of attitude is also portrayed in such publications as "Why Catholics Cannot be Good Citizens". It's completely Anglican in nature and totally false. If the Ironmonk train catches this thread, he maybe able to add some very informative stuff. God bless, Mikey [/quote] Where do I get that? Well maybe because patriotism is an 18th and 19th century invention. It didn't exist when Christ was around or for the first 1700 years of Church history. It's not even an early modern period invention. It is purely a secular creation of the post enlightenment period. As such, there's no need for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 true patriotism is always a virtue, it is true love for your country. a true patriot in Germany 1935 would have opposed Hitler, for instance, because of love for his fatherland. edit: patriotism does not equal nationalism, so while Kizlar presents an argument I love against nationalism, he does not present any argument against patriotism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KizlarAgha Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 [quote name='Aloysius' date='Jun 2 2005, 08:37 PM'] true patriotism is always a virtue, it is true love for your country. a true patriot in Germany 1935 would have opposed Hitler, for instance, because of love for his fatherland. edit: patriotism does not equal nationalism, so while Kizlar presents an argument I love against nationalism, SHE does not present any argument against patriotism. [/quote] I would disagree with this. Patriotism seems to me to be a corollary of nationalism. Ethnic and religious identities were always far more important in the past than national origin. In fact, the modern concept of citizenship didn't really exist. So maybe the Church up and decided that patriotism is a virtue but I think that's mindless 20th century pandering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 [quote name='KizlarAgha' date='Jun 2 2005, 08:37 PM'] Where do I get that? Well maybe because patriotism is an 18th and 19th century invention. It didn't exist when Christ was around or for the first 1700 years of Church history. It's not even an early modern period invention. It is purely a secular creation of the post enlightenment period. As such, there's no need for it. [/quote] In other words, you get it out of your own head. I don't have the source now, but it seems I remeber reading something from the Church praising patriotism as a natural virtue. You are confusing patriotism with nationalism. Patriotism, a love for one's homeland, or for one's tribe, has existed in every healthy human society thooughout history. It's apparent current decline in America is a bad sign for our civilization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KizlarAgha Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 [quote name='Socrates' date='Jun 2 2005, 08:49 PM'] In other words, you get it out of your own head. I don't have the source now, but it seems I remeber reading something from the Church praising patriotism as a natural virtue. You are confusing patriotism with nationalism. Patriotism, a love for one's homeland, or for one's tribe, has existed in every healthy human society thooughout history. It's apparent current decline in America is a bad sign for our civilization. [/quote] Open a history book for once in your life Socrates. I study medieval history as a career. That's what I do. That's my life. I know whether or not medieval societies exhibited any real "patriotism." They didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 I think our definitions are all different if we define patriotism as "Love of and devotion to one's country." what if we replace country with king? lord? family patriotism comes from the same thing as patriarch ehhh... I'm not sure... I'm not even sure how to define or understand patriotism actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KizlarAgha Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 [quote name='Aloysius' date='Jun 2 2005, 08:55 PM'] I think our definitions are all different if we define patriotism as "Love of and devotion to one's country." what if we replace country with king? lord? family patriotism comes from the same thing as patriarch ehhh... I'm not sure... I'm not even sure how to define or understand patriotism actually. [/quote] Patriotism comes from patria - the latin for Fatherland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 [quote name='KizlarAgha' date='Jun 2 2005, 08:50 PM'] Open a history book for once in your life Socrates. I study medieval history as a career. That's what I do. That's my life. I know whether or not medieval societies exhibited any real "patriotism." They didn't. [/quote] Knock off the snippity personal insults for once in your life, Kizlar. I majored in history in college (and a good Catholic college, at that.) Plenty of medieval heroes were willing to risk their life for king and/or country. Joan of Arc, William Wallace, etc. When one's homeland is attacked or invaded, it is natural that one stand up and fight for it. This is natural virtue. To do otherwise is universally recognized as shameful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KizlarAgha Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 [quote name='Socrates' date='Jun 2 2005, 09:04 PM'] Knock off the snippity personal insults for once in your life, Kizlar. I majored in history in college (and a good Catholic college, at that.) Plenty of medieval heroes were willing to risk their life for king and/or country. Joan of Arc, William Wallace, etc. When one's homeland is attacked or invaded, it is natural that one stand up and fight for it. This is natural virtue. To do otherwise is universally recognized as shameful. [/quote] Well if that's not the pot calling the kettle black. I don't think you're capable of posting without including some vague reference to your own superiority. William Wallace was fighting for a country that didn't exist. Ste. Jehanne d'Arc was fighting for the dauphin, and for France. This is one of the things that makes me believe she was divinely inspired, because, at the time, the English were the "legitimate" kings of the lands we today call France and the "French" were but one segment of a very fragmented population. I think your point with Jehanne is a good one. However, I think it very much runs contrary to medieval culture as a general thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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