Patriotism

[philothea]

I have been curious about this since I arrived here. I do not yet have an opinion.

[Socrates]

This has been debated in the past. I think it is important to properly define "patriotism." Patriotism is love for one's country, and is a natural virtue, akin to love for one's family.
It is not blind support for whatever the current policies of one's country are at the time, nor should it take precidence over loyalty to God and His Church.

But in its proper place and properly understood, patriotism is a virtue.

[MichaelFilo]

Seconding Socartes's statement, I'm sorry I cannot remember where the Church made that statement. However, it's a virtue. It can be corrupted in many ways (thinking your nation is perfect (not possible), or thinking your country is more favored by God (Americanism)). However, it is still a virtue, and you can tell that when a man is not patriotic, he is also not very faithful and obedient. I'm not saying those who don't love their country are bad, but lacking any virtue is just one more weak spot for senior Satan and the demonic gang.

God bless,
Mikey

[KizlarAgha]

Patriotism is never acceptable. Your only patriotism should be to the Holy See.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Patriotism is based on loving our country. When we love our friends, regardless of how twisted and maligned they are, we love them not because we admire all of their traits or actions, but because we want what's best for them. That's love, and when a country is the object, that's patriotism.

Patriotism is that which makes us want to make our homeland on earth like our true homeland in Heaven.

Patriotism is always a virtue...but there is an evil, twisted form of it, which is nationalism.

[MichaelFilo]

Kizlar... where does the Church say THAT. And furthermore, an attitude like that justified the English mistreatment of Catholics on a political level especially post-Reformation, and it was completely false. That kind of attitude is also portrayed in such publications as "Why Catholics Cannot be Good Citizens". It's completely Anglican in nature and totally false. If the Ironmonk train catches this thread, he maybe able to add some very informative stuff.

God bless,
Mikey

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Jun 2 2005, 08:33 PM'] Kizlar... where does the Church say THAT. And furthermore, an attitude like that justified the English mistreatment of Catholics on a political level especially post-Reformation, and it was completely false. That kind of attitude is also portrayed in such publications as "Why Catholics Cannot be Good Citizens". It's completely Anglican in nature and totally false. If the Ironmonk train catches this thread, he maybe able to add some very informative stuff.

God bless,
Mikey [/quote]
Where do I get that?

Well maybe because patriotism is an 18th and 19th century invention. It didn't exist when Christ was around or for the first 1700 years of Church history. It's not even an early modern period invention. It is purely a secular creation of the post enlightenment period. As such, there's no need for it.

[Aloysius]

true patriotism is always a virtue, it is true love for your country. a true patriot in Germany 1935 would have opposed Hitler, for instance, because of love for his fatherland.

edit: patriotism does not equal nationalism, so while Kizlar presents an argument I love against nationalism, he does not present any argument against patriotism.

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Jun 2 2005, 08:37 PM'] true patriotism is always a virtue, it is true love for your country. a true patriot in Germany 1935 would have opposed Hitler, for instance, because of love for his fatherland.

edit: patriotism does not equal nationalism, so while Kizlar presents an argument I love against nationalism, SHE does not present any argument against patriotism. [/quote]
I would disagree with this. Patriotism seems to me to be a corollary of nationalism. Ethnic and religious identities were always far more important in the past than national origin. In fact, the modern concept of citizenship didn't really exist. So maybe the Church up and decided that patriotism is a virtue but I think that's mindless 20th century pandering.

[Socrates]

[quote name='KizlarAgha' date='Jun 2 2005, 08:37 PM'] Where do I get that?

Well maybe because patriotism is an 18th and 19th century invention. It didn't exist when Christ was around or for the first 1700 years of Church history. It's not even an early modern period invention. It is purely a secular creation of the post enlightenment period. As such, there's no need for it. [/quote]
In other words, you get it out of your own head.

I don't have the source now, but it seems I remeber reading something from the Church praising patriotism as a natural virtue.

You are confusing patriotism with nationalism. Patriotism, a love for one's homeland, or for one's tribe, has existed in every healthy human society thooughout history. It's apparent current decline in America is a bad sign for our civilization.

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Jun 2 2005, 08:49 PM'] In other words, you get it out of your own head.

I don't have the source now, but it seems I remeber reading something from the Church praising patriotism as a natural virtue.

You are confusing patriotism with nationalism. Patriotism, a love for one's homeland, or for one's tribe, has existed in every healthy human society thooughout history. It's apparent current decline in America is a bad sign for our civilization. [/quote]
Open a history book for once in your life Socrates. I study medieval history as a career. That's what I do. That's my life. I know whether or not medieval societies exhibited any real "patriotism." They didn't.

[Aloysius]

I think our definitions are all different

if we define patriotism as "Love of and devotion to one's country."

what if we replace country with king? lord? family

patriotism comes from the same thing as patriarch

ehhh... I'm not sure... I'm not even sure how to define or understand patriotism actually.

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Jun 2 2005, 08:55 PM'] I think our definitions are all different

if we define patriotism as "Love of and devotion to one's country."

what if we replace country with king? lord? family

patriotism comes from the same thing as patriarch

ehhh... I'm not sure... I'm not even sure how to define or understand patriotism actually. [/quote]
Patriotism comes from patria - the latin for Fatherland.

[Socrates]

[quote name='KizlarAgha' date='Jun 2 2005, 08:50 PM'] Open a history book for once in your life Socrates. I study medieval history as a career. That's what I do. That's my life. I know whether or not medieval societies exhibited any real "patriotism." They didn't. [/quote]
Knock off the snippity personal insults for once in your life, Kizlar. I majored in history in college (and a good Catholic college, at that.) Plenty of medieval heroes were willing to risk their life for king and/or country. Joan of Arc, William Wallace, etc. When one's homeland is attacked or invaded, it is natural that one stand up and fight for it. This is natural virtue. To do otherwise is universally recognized as shameful.

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Jun 2 2005, 09:04 PM'] Knock off the snippity personal insults for once in your life, Kizlar. I majored in history in college (and a good Catholic college, at that.) Plenty of medieval heroes were willing to risk their life for king and/or country. Joan of Arc, William Wallace, etc. When one's homeland is attacked or invaded, it is natural that one stand up and fight for it. This is natural virtue. To do otherwise is universally recognized as shameful. [/quote]
Well if that's not the pot calling the kettle black. I don't think you're capable of posting without including some vague reference to your own superiority.

William Wallace was fighting for a country that didn't exist.

Ste. Jehanne d'Arc was fighting for the dauphin, and for France. This is one of the things that makes me believe she was divinely inspired, because, at the time, the English were the "legitimate" kings of the lands we today call France and the "French" were but one segment of a very fragmented population. I think your point with Jehanne is a good one. However, I think it very much runs contrary to medieval culture as a general thing.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='philothea' date='Jun 2 2005, 09:35 PM'] I have been curious about this since I arrived here. I do not yet have an opinion. [/quote]
Patriotism is a virtue... It is one of the Knights of Columbus pillars.

Patriotism is a part of piety... according to St. Thomas Aquinas.

Patriotism is loving one's country. If the country is going in the wrong direction, Catholics have a responsibility to try and correct the disorder.

We are children of our country and we must honor it.

I use to be unpatriotic, then I learned the truth as taught by the Church and changed for Christ.


[b]2199[/b]
The fourth commandment is addressed expressly to children in their relationship to their father and mother, because this relationship is the most universal. It likewise concerns the ties of kinship between members of the extended family. It requires honor, affection, and gratitude toward elders and ancestors. Finally, it extends to the duties of pupils to teachers, employees to employers, subordinates to leaders, citizens to their country, and to those who administer or govern it.

This commandment includes and presupposes the duties of parents, instructors, teachers, leaders, magistrates, those who govern, all who exercise authority over others or over a community of persons.

[b]2212[/b]
The fourth commandment illuminates other relationships in society. In our brothers and sisters we see the children of our parents; in our cousins, the descendants of our ancestors; in our fellow citizens, the children of our country; in the baptized, the children of our mother the Church; in every human person, a son or daughter of the One who wants to be called "our Father." In this way our relationships with our neighbors are recognized as personal in character. The neighbor is not a "unit" in the human collective; he is "someone" who by his known origins deserves particular attention and respect.


[b]The duties of citizens[/b]


[b]2238 [/b]
Those subject to authority should regard those in authority as representatives of God, who has made them stewards of his gifts:43 "Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution. . . . Live as free men, yet without using your freedom as a pretext for evil; but live as servants of God."44 Their loyal collaboration includes the right, and at times the duty, to voice their just criticisms of that which seems harmful to the dignity of persons and to the good of the community.


[b]2239 [/b]
It is the duty of citizens to contribute along with the civil authorities to the good of society in a spirit of truth, justice, solidarity, and freedom. [u]The love and service of one's country follow from the duty of gratitude and belong to the order of charity.[/u] Submission to legitimate authorities and service of the common good require citizens to fulfill their roles in the life of the political community.


[b]2240 [/b]
Submission to authority and co-responsibility for the common good make it morally obligatory to pay taxes, to exercise the right to vote, and to defend one's country:


Pay to all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.45

[Christians] reside in their own nations, but as resident aliens. They participate in all things as citizens and endure all things as foreigners. . . . They obey the established laws and their way of life surpasses the laws. . . . So noble is the position to which God has assigned them that they are not allowed to desert it.46

The Apostle exhorts us to offer prayers and thanksgiving for kings and all who exercise authority, "that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way."47


[b]2241 [/b]
The more prosperous nations are obliged, to the extent they are able, to welcome the foreigner in search of the security and the means of livelihood which he cannot find in his country of origin. Public authorities should see to it that the natural right is respected that places a guest under the protection of those who receive him.

Political authorities, for the sake of the common good for which they are responsible, may make the exercise of the right to immigrate subject to various juridical conditions, especially with regard to the immigrants' duties toward their country of adoption. Immigrants are obliged to respect with gratitude the material and spiritual heritage of the country that receives them, to obey its laws and to assist in carrying civic burdens.


[b]2242 [/b]
The citizen is obliged in conscience not to follow the directives of civil authorities when they are contrary to the demands of the moral order, to the fundamental rights of persons or the teachings of the Gospel. Refusing obedience to civil authorities, when their demands are contrary to those of an upright conscience, finds its justification in the distinction between serving God and serving the political community. "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's."48 "We must obey God rather than men":49


When citizens are under the oppression of a public authority which oversteps its competence, they should still not refuse to give or to do what is objectively demanded of them by the common good; but it is legitimate for them to defend their own rights and those of their fellow citizens against the abuse of this authority within the limits of the natural law and the Law of the Gospel.50

[b]2243 [/b]
Armed resistance to oppression by political authority is not legitimate, unless all the following conditions are met: 1) there is certain, grave, and prolonged violation of fundamental rights; 2) all other means of redress have been exhausted; 3) such resistance will not provoke worse disorders; 4) there is well-founded hope of success; and 5) it is impossible reasonably to foresee any better solution.




God Bless,
ironmonk

[KizlarAgha]

My problem is that patriotism also implies loving one country more than another. This is actually a very modernist viewpoint I'm taking but I see myself more as a citizen of the world than as a citizen of the US.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='KizlarAgha' date='Jun 2 2005, 11:23 PM'] My problem is that patriotism also implies loving one country more than another. This is actually a very modernist viewpoint I'm taking but I see myself more as a citizen of the world than as a citizen of the US. [/quote]
Ask yourself what does the Church teach? And study what it teaches on country...

It's ok to love your home more than another home. Patriotism does not say hate other countries. Go to [url="http://www.USCCB.org"]http://www.USCCB.org[/url], click the "Go" button next to the search, click advanced, only check the Catechism, and set the search options for "must contain", and type "Country" in the search area.

The Church's teachings will not misguide us.... our feelings and desires will.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[Socrates]

[quote name='KizlarAgha' date='Jun 2 2005, 09:23 PM'] My problem is that patriotism also implies loving one country more than another. This is actually a very modernist viewpoint I'm taking but I see myself more as a citizen of the world than as a citizen of the US. [/quote]
So do you think we should hand over national sovereignity to the U.N.?

Over my cold, dead body! :angry:

[KizlarAgha]

I did what you asked Ironmonk, and the first thing I came up with was the Bishops using the catechism to admonish the US to maintain policies responisble to the rest of the people of the world. Seems like they're advocating that citizen of the world thing...

[url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/update/mar96.htm"]http://www.usccb.org/catechism/update/mar96.htm[/url]