Was Jesus Christ a woman?

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='SarahB' date='Jun 3 2005, 09:31 PM'] They probably just said "she" was presented or something.


You gotta wonder, though.....what was Judith's relationship with Mary Magdalen? [/quote]
Well Dan Brown is coming out with a newly revised Da Vinci code in which Judith was Mary Magdalen's lesbian lover.

[Honour]

[quote name='1337 k4th0l1x0r' date='Jun 3 2005, 05:15 PM'] It's still nothing compared to the stupidest thing ever on the internet.

[url="http://www.timecube.com/"]http://www.timecube.com/[/url] [/quote]
OH, my head hurts now.

[Socrates]

[quote name='KizlarAgha' date='Jun 3 2005, 06:49 PM'] I know. My avatar is my favorite image of the archangel Gabriel ever. It hangs on my wall. Angels were depicted in eastern art as....EUNUCHS!!

Anyway, I love the gender-less qualities of angels and particularly like the effeminate angel icons. [/quote]
I hate "effeminate"-looking releigious art, particularly when intended to depict Jesus. While angels are spirits - I'd prefer them to look like either female or male, not as effeminate men.

And Kizlar, your whole obsession with eunuchs is sick. I find nothing "cute' or amusing about the barbaric practice of castration.

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Jun 3 2005, 10:09 PM'] I hate "effeminate"-looking releigious art, particularly when intended to depict Jesus. While angels are spirits - I'd prefer them to look like either female or male, not as effeminate men.

And Kizlar, your whole obsession with eunuchs is sick. I find nothing "cute' or amusing about the barbaric practice of castration. [/quote]
Cool your jets Socrates. How about a little live and let live. I mean, can't I like the kind of religious art I prefer to like?

I don't want to hurl anymore insults at you. I just want to say this: Angels are NOT male or female. The tradition is that they be depicted as eunuchs which were thought to be "sexless." So your desire to see angels as male or female has more to do with your modern sensibilities of gender possibility than the reality of angels.

[Piccoli Fiori JMJ]

do spirits have genders? I wouldn't think so, and angels are pure spirit...

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='FutureNunJMJ' date='Jun 4 2005, 12:06 AM'] do spirits have genders? I wouldn't think so, and angels are pure spirit... [/quote]
Angels are genderless...hence the attempt to render them as such. Of course genderless doesn't necessarily mean they look androgynous or in between genders. It could mean something else. But most visions and interpretations and icons have been of an intermediate gender for spirits. In addition, one must be tonsured to be an iconographer in the eastern Catholic or Orthodox tradition. Thus what they paint is considered to be quasi-sacramental. So...yeah...

Archangel Gabriel is my favorite genderless being.

[Piccoli Fiori JMJ]

how can you represent pure spirit in art I want to know... they have no flesh, only soul...

[Aloysius]

actually, that's pretty traditional to portray them that way. they ought to be portrayed masculine but in a sort of youth

they're not supposed to be portrayed as female.

they are gender neutral and as such appear in the masculine because girls have the gender-identifying features (when clothed in robes as angels are described in the Bible).

what socrates in his earthly outlook refers to as "effeminate" is really a sign of heaven and divine youthfulness.

this is the traditional way to depict angels in art. they are depicted in the masculine because the femine is really the gender-identifying feature among people clothed in flowing robes. their faces are youthful as a sign of divine favor... they are depicted as beautiful because angels are beautiful.

I am tired of seeing them portrayed as girls (a modern concept, there never used to be a concept of a female angel). they are neither gender, but genderless defaults back to a masculine presentation. thus all angels in the Bible have masculine names, and appear as male. thus all angels until the 19/20 century (maybe there were some earlier, never really delved that far into it) were depicted in sacred art and in literary references in the masculine

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='FutureNunJMJ' date='Jun 4 2005, 12:10 AM'] how can you represent pure spirit in art I want to know... they have no flesh, only soul... [/quote]
You sound like an iconoclast.

Well, the short answer is that an angel could appear in whatever form that angel desired. Male, female, horse, pig, rat, eunuch, rock, tree. Whatever. But the apparitions seem to be of a genderless being. In addition, when angels are depicted, we like to give them human qualities. Afterall, we were created in God's image. Angels therefore are seen to be similar in nature to us and thereby to God. But because they don't have genders we draw them as androgynous humans.

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Jun 4 2005, 12:13 AM'] actually, that's pretty traditional to portray them that way. they ought to be portrayed masculine but in a sort of youth

they're not supposed to be portrayed as female.

they are gender neutral and as such appear in the masculine because girls have the gender-identifying features.

what socrates in his earthly outlook refers to as "effeminate" is really a sign of heaven and divine youthfulness.

this is the traditional way to depict angels in art. they are depicted in the masculine because the femine is really the gender-identifying feature among people clothed in flowing robes. their faces are youthful as a sign of divine favor... they are depicted as beautiful because angels are beautiful.

I am tired of seeing them portrayed as girls (a modern concept, there never used to be a concept of a female angel). [/quote]
Right but they aren't male either. They are depicted WITHOUT distinguishing sexual characteristics. But the lack of breasts doesn't mean they are more male than female. They don't have genitals either. So the truth is - they're neither. But most people have a hard time with genderless stuff because it is such a huge part of humanity. It breaks down the binary system that modern societies have in place. Therefore, depsite it being traditional, it can be threatening.

[Aloysius]

yes, they are genderless. so is God. it defaults to masculine in depiction and reference, thus Michael and Gabriel and Raphael... all masculine names... all appear in the masculine.

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Jun 4 2005, 12:18 AM'] yes, they are genderless. so is God. it defaults to masculine in depiction and reference, thus Michael and Gabriel and Raphael... all masculine names... all appear in the masculine. [/quote]
hahahahaha

I might give you Michael and maybe Raphael (especially the book of tobit)

But Gabriel is generally portrayed in the west as a very feminine being in a white dress holding flowers.

[Piccoli Fiori JMJ]

[quote name='KizlarAgha' date='Jun 3 2005, 11:14 PM'] You sound like an iconoclast.

Well, the short answer is that an angel could appear in whatever form that angel desired. Male, female, horse, pig, rat, eunuch, rock, tree. Whatever. But the apparitions seem to be of a genderless being. In addition, when angels are depicted, we like to give them human qualities. Afterall, we were created in God's image. Angels therefore are seen to be similar in nature to us and thereby to God. But because they don't have genders we draw them as androgynous humans. [/quote]
I dunno... I just like the mystery of it all... I'm not trying to say that its bad to do so, but, yeah... thanks for your answer... I dunno... for some reason, I've had a thing against angels for some time thinking it was silly, but I am really starting to understand teachings on them, so things are much better... sometimes I think it is just silly when people call others their "guardian angel" when God has already given them one, and a real angel! One who sees God's face all the time! Whoo hoo! It's like basking in the glow of Moses

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='FutureNunJMJ' date='Jun 4 2005, 12:20 AM'] I dunno... I just like the mystery of it all... I'm not trying to say that its bad to do so, but, yeah... thanks for your answer... I dunno... for some reason, I've had a thing against angels for some time thinking it was silly, but I am really starting to understand teachings on them, so things are much better... sometimes I think it is just silly when people call others their "guardian angel" when God has already given them one, and a real angel! One who sees God's face all the time! Whoo hoo! It's like basking in the glow of Moses [/quote]
Yeah it bugs me when people call me their guardian angel. I have one...and I treat him like carp.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='KizlarAgha' date='Jun 4 2005, 01:19 AM'] hahahahaha

I might give you Michael and maybe Raphael (especially the book of tobit)

But Gabriel is generally portrayed in the west as a very feminine being in a white dress holding flowers. [/quote]
nah, he is still considered male

maybe I should brush up on my research on this, but it is defaulted to the masculine. Gabriel is also male name.

what appears as "effeminate" is showing off the beauty of angels.

they're gender neutral. and since the feminine gender is traditionally considered the second gender created, and thus the one with gender-identifying features, gender-neutral is portrayed as male. the quoteunquote feminine qualities are the beauty of them as angels.

the concept of any sort of feminine angel is very modern in origin. though I can give you apparently feminine qualities and tell you that theeologically they are gender neutral, we must realize that gender neutrality is not a mix of male and female, it is not being any gender at all. thus it is represented in the masculine with beauty and divinity bestowed upon it.

oi, I did a lot of looking into this at one point... I think Aquinas or something was one of my main sources but it was quite a long time ago, I'll brush up because I'm probably not being very clear here.

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Jun 4 2005, 12:27 AM'] nah, he is still considered male

maybe I should brush up on my research on this, but it is defaulted to the masculine. Gabriel is also male name.

what appears as "effeminate" is showing off the beauty of angels.

they're gender neutral. and since the feminine gender is traditionally considered the second gender created, and thus the one with gender-identifying features, gender-neutral is portrayed as male. the quoteunquote feminine qualities are the beauty of them as angels.

the concept of any sort of feminine angel is very modern in origin. though I can give you apparently feminine qualities and tell you that theeologically they are gender neutral, we must realize that gender neutrality is not a mix of male and female, it is not being any gender at all. thus it is represented in the masculine with beauty and divinity bestowed upon it.

oi, I did a lot of looking into this at one point... I think Aquinas or something was one of my main sources but it was quite a long time ago, I'll brush up because I'm probably not being very clear here. [/quote]
I totally disagree. I think gender-less doesn't default to the male. Biologically, female is the default sex. And if you take away sex hormones, humans basically all look the same - like children. The difference between a male child and a female child, genitals aside, is basically hair length. Children don't default to the male.

In fact, in Byzantine theology and anatomy, males are only those men who are fully potent, capable of growing beards, have tough skin, and hard muscles.

Old men who are impotent, children, eunuchs, and women make up the non-male category. Therefore from an eastern standpoint Angels are definitively non-male. They are depicted as eunuchs after all.

[Aloysius]

in the west, it is defaulted to the male NOT to say that angels are male, but because gender neutral is represented as male.

we don't disagree in substance at all, I'm not arguing that angels are male. I'm only arguing that they are traditionally represented as male because male was created first and thus considered as default (at least in the west).

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Jun 4 2005, 12:35 AM'] in the west, it is defaulted to the male NOT to say that angels are male, but because gender neutral is represented as male. [/quote]
It isn't male. A lack of breasts is NOT a default to male.

[Aloysius]

however, it is also represented thusly in literature, and in biblical literature.

Hebrew angels were always portrayed as male in the Jewish Tradition for the same Adam reason I have already mentioned.

In the west, they were always portrayed in the male as well.

At Fatima, the angel that appears appears male, because in the west the concept of gender neutral angels says that angels appear as male.

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Jun 4 2005, 12:41 AM'] however, it is also represented thusly in literature, and in biblical literature.

Hebrew angels were always portrayed as male in the Jewish Tradition for the same Adam reason I have already mentioned.

In the west, they were always portrayed in the male as well.

At Fatima, the angel that appears appears male, because in the west the concept of gender neutral angels says that angels appear as male. [/quote]
That makes no freaking sense. Seriously. Read what you wrote.

in the west the concept of gender neutral angels says that angels appear as male.

That's not gender neutral now is it?