the state of the debate board

[Circle_Master]

Correct Apotheoun, you are called a Roman Catholic for clarifying purposes. They do not label you "I am not a Christian" because you are Roman Catholic. Perhaps in words they may, but then they are wrong if they do that.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Circle_Master' date='Jun 15 2005, 12:16 AM']Correct Apotheoun, you are called a Roman Catholic for clarifying purposes.  They do not label you "I am not a Christian" because you are Roman Catholic.  Perhaps in words they may, but then they are wrong if they do that.
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That does depend upon the website. I've been called a "Roman Catholic" and been told that "Roman Catholics" aren't Christians. So again, it does vary from place to place.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Circle_Master' date='Jun 15 2005, 12:16 AM'][. . .]  They do not label you "I am not a Christian" because you are Roman Catholic.  Perhaps in words they may, but then they are wrong if they do that.
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Let's be frank about this issue.

When I go to non-Catholic web forums, I don't take offense at their theological views, even though I disagree with them. Moreover, I have been told countless times that I'm a Roman Catholic (when in fact I am not), and I've been told that Catholics aren't Christians. I've even gone to Eastern Orthodox websites and been told that I am a "Uniate" (which is an offensive term to Byzantine Catholics), but I try to look past the names I've been called, and simply stick to the issues that concern me.

[Circle_Master]

Agreed Apotheoun.

Here is where it is different: I am not arguing that we should have the same level of dialogue and respect for one another that pervades internet forums.

Christians are called to a higher standard of living and a higher standard in all areas of their lives. While I am not a Catholic I think you can appreciate this as well as I. (on another note, you quote Brevard Childs, so you have to be cool :-)) How phatmass can go beyond the normal immaturity is to condemn unneccessary trolling and arrogance where it lies. For ages on here IronMonk and another who I forget his name insulted me daily which I ignored so that I could learn about the Catholic Church. They frankly were the worst witnesses of the Catholic Church I have ever met in my life. (to be blunt).

If you want this to be a better site -- and I do as well -- then things like this need to be avoided. Never compare yourselves to how other sites do it, consider Scripture and the principles which may apply here.

[Myles Domini]

[quote]I've had this discussion here before and will attempt to ignore your "well we are the church so if you don't like it too bad" attitude. Phatmass residents finally agreed that Catholic Church was an accepted term to refer to the entire Roman Catholic Church. If you use "Catholic Church" then that also could include the Episcopal Church or the Church of England or various others. If you just use the "Church" then that could cover an even broader term.[/quote]

Not by our understanding or the understanding of the earliest Christians. The term Catholic was first used by the 3rd Bishop of Antioch, St Ignatius, a disciple of St John the beloved disciple. In his epistles he makes clear that anyone who has broken off from the recognised body of the Church is no longer Catholic and cannot be known by that name. The Anglican Communion is the Anglican Communion and the Catholic Church is the Catholic Church. Other people might claim to be the Catholic Church but they cannot square their understanding of that term against the understanding of the Apostles and the Apostolic Fathers.

In the Pauline and Catholic epistles there are several examples of people being thrown out of the Church, some are even mentioned by name. The reception of an Anathema severs one from the body of the Church and this is an understanding as old as the Church itself as is evidenced by the writings of the Church Fathers. This is one of the things the Venerable Cardinal Newman recognised while he was pondering his position in the Anglican communion and saw that regardless of whether or not Anglicans had apostolicity so too did the Arians, but that did not give either communion Catholicity.

We believe in One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Redefinitions of that term might be proposed according to the 'branch theory' etc.etc. but they are redefinitions and do not equate to the teaching of the apostles and Fathers e.g. St Ignatius of Antioch on the subject.

"Ubi Petrus, Ibi Ecclesia"--St Ambrose.

[Circle_Master]

Myles, I know what you believe. Thanks for the summary of Catholic Church beliefs again though.

[Apotheoun]

Circle Master,

Most certainly charity should reign supreme, but always in truth of course.

Be that as it may, perhaps you are misunderstanding the nature of the group icon that you're talking about, because it does not mean that the person so named is a non-Christian; instead, it simply means that the posts of the person in question do not conform to the teaching of the Magisterium of the Church.

Now, I'm sure that you agree that your posts don't conform to the Magisterium, and that the owner of the forum as a Catholic has a right, and I would say a duty, to try and make sure that anyone who comes to this forum looking for an orthodox Catholic answer to a specific theological question can find it, and have some way of differentiating the different posts.

Now perhaps I am mistaken on this issue, but that is how I understood the purpose of the group icons; in other words, the icons are not meant to be a "put down," nor are they meant to say that a person who has the icon "I do not represent the Church" is a non-Christian. They are simply meant to help those who come to the forum in order to find the Church's position on a given question, to do just that, find the Catholic doctrinal position.

[Myles Domini]

[quote]Myles, I know what you believe. Thanks for the summary of Catholic Church beliefs again though.[/quote]

Catholic beliefs (Roman Catholic is for the particular Latin church alone, the Byzantines, Melkites, Maronites etc dont style themselves as such)

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Myles' date='Jun 15 2005, 12:50 AM']Catholic beliefs  (Roman Catholic is for the particular Latin church alone, the Byzantines, Melkites, Maronites etc dont style themselves as such)
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Yes, Myles has first hand experience with this fact, since he is a member of the Byzantine Forum.

[Circle_Master]

Very true, and I agree with your reasoning again.

Where we differ is in the choice of "I DO NOT REPRESENT THE CHURCH" as opposed to "non-Catholic" "evangelical" "protestant" or "Non-Catholic Church". All the latter would be simplier and would insult no one and cause no problems. I question the wisdom in chosing "I DO NOT REPRESENT THE CHURCH". As I argued briefly in an earlier article within my own understanding of what Scripture teaches and along with the majority of protestant teachings, I DO represent the church.

Would it be acceptable arguably to have a board in Germany during WW2 (although they did not exist) and to have Jews with the group icon "I AM NOT A HUMAN"? To the Nazi ideology that might be ok, but yet we know it to be insulting to the Jewish person.

Here we have non-Catholics being branded with Catholic terminology. Is not the fundamental choice the same between the two comparisons? Perhaps you can argue in some settings that this is acceptable, however in an inter-faith forum it would seem measures should be taken to welcome non-Catholics.

Edited June 15, 2005 by Circle_Master

[Apotheoun]

Certainly different categories of icons could be used, but the number of possible icons boggles the mind. I think the forum owner would have a heavy burden trying to give everyone the type of group icon that they want.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Circle_Master' date='Jun 15 2005, 12:54 AM']Very true, and I agree with your reasoning again.

Where we differ is in the choice of "I DO NOT REPRESENT THE CHURCH" as opposed to "non-Catholic" "evangelical" "protestant" or "Non-Catholic Church".
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How ironic it would be if a "Non-Catholic Church" category were devised, because both you and I would be in that group.



I think that category would be the most confusing group ever created for the forum.

[Circle_Master]

But then on the other hand, it may be the most useful icon ever made since from everyone I have grown up with understands Catholic Church as synonymous with what you refer to as the Catholic Church. Interfaith Dialogue! Communication is important.

I do wonder though, do you enjoy Brevard Childs writings? Have you read much of his stuff?

Edited June 15, 2005 by Circle_Master

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Circle_Master' date='Jun 15 2005, 01:07 AM']But then on the other hand, it may be the most useful icon ever made since from everyone I have spoken with Catholic Church is synonymous with what you refer to as the Catholic Church.  Interfaith Dialogue!  Communication is important. 

I do wonder though, do you enjoy Brevard Childs writings?  Have you read much of his stuff?
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I'm sure that a member of the Latin Rite doesn't mind being called Roman Catholic, but I do, because it is inaccurate.

I've read a couple of B. S. Childs books, and enjoyed them.

[jasJis]

And we thought Les was hard to discuss with.

Circle, you are only complaining about semantics and perceptions. This board is run by humans, and choices are made based on the best human judgement of the WebMaster, whether you like it, don't like it, agree, or disagree.

And I am very sure IronMonk never insulted you, but I remember you took offense at the things he said. Iron doesn't intentionally insult, he just isn't inordinately careful about not offending.

On the other hand, I'm not as self disciplined.

Edited June 15, 2005 by jasJis

[Jaime]

[quote]And we thought Les was hard to discuss with[/quote]

He is

[Noel's angel]

Why do you still post if you disagree with the icon and dUSts decision to use it?

[Nicole8223]

This seems silly to me. If you don't want to be labeled with "Catholic terminology" then why would you come to a site like this? You WILL be labeled with Catholic terminology as this is a Catholic site, and we are not trying to hide that. It is very clear that this site represents the Catholic theology, and I don't think it should change because non-Catholics or NON-whateveryouthinkitshouldsay think Catholics are wrong.

That would defeat the purpose of the site.

At any rate, the site is not about the label next to your name, but about the discussion that occurs...so let's just move on already.

[1337 k4th0l1x0r]

I have a few suggestions for the Debate Table. This is a loooong post.

First: debate moderators. I don't want to poopoo the wonderful job the board mods do here, but debate threads often need moderators in the sense of what a moderator does in a traditional debate. The debate moderators don't even need any kind of special board privileges such as the ability to delete or modify posts, and can be appointed at the start of a thread. The debate moderator will point out to posters when the thread has gone off topic or when an argument contains a personal attack, etc. Also debate ettiquite should be enforced here and people should take more time to construct truly logical arguments that avoid going off-topic.

My second suggestion is to put information seeking posts in the Apologetics page and not the debate thread. So many nasty debates, or rather slugfests, have started because someone posted in the debate thread wondering how to defend a position on abortion or why the Church thinks women's ordination is wrong. This is really more of an apologetics topic. Some would argue that showing only the church side of the issue is wrong and closed minded, but I feel that when someone (the thread starter) asks a question or makes a request, the thread should be about answering that question or request. So I recommend to posters here that if they want to know a church position, that they post it in a more appropriate board. Board mods should also try to move non-debate threads to the apologetics board. I'll post below some examples of what a non-debate-starting and debate-starting thread look like (The examples are not meant to look scholarly or reflect my opinions in any way).

Non-debate-starter:
I'm wondering why the Church teaches abortion is wrong. Any help?

Debate-Starter:
I don't accept the church's teaching on abortion. I believe that a fetus is part of a woman's body until the child is born and the woman can do anything with her body that she wants.

--

It seems we've had debates break out from both of these types of posts yet only the second one is really looking to start a debate.

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Jun 13 2005, 06:22 PM']AHHHHH  Heathen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Don't you know coffee is one of the ways that we know that God loves us and wants us to be happy.
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I thought that beer (or other alcohol....) was one of the ways we know God loves us?