the Charismatic gifts

[photosynthesis]

My roommate's been going to a Pentacostal Church in the Assembly of God denomination. They're really focused on the gifts of the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit in general. They believe that you're not really baptized unless you've been "baptized in the holy spirit" and can speak in tongues. Also, they are really focused on healing and deliverance from demons.

We got into a discussion of the Early Church... I was arguing that the Early Church was Catholic in all respects -- they honored the Blessed Mother, they celebrated the Eucharist and they had a Pope and sacraments and all that good stuff... She argued that the Early Church was Pentacostal in nature, in that they spoke in tongues, miraculously healed people and delivered people from demons...

What do you think of this? I know that the Catholic Church has, thoughout history, healed many people through Annointing of the Sick, and the powerful intercession of the saints. I know that there are Catholics who speak in tongues, and I know that they still do exorcisms, although it's not as common.

How do I prove to her that the Early Church is Catholic? Are there any patristic writings I should read?

I guess it seems that the fundamental difference is.... Pentacostals believe that it's all about the gifts of the Holy Spirit, but Catholics believe that the Eucharist is the source and summit of our faith.

[Brother Adam]

The early Church was both - the gifts of the Holy Spirit are biblical and were there for evangelistic purposes. To an extent they are still here today. However your friend ascribes to heresy to believe that one must speak in tongues or be charasmatic in nature to be saved. That is most certianly not true.

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Jun 22 2005, 10:15 PM']The early Church was both - the gifts of the Holy Spirit are biblical and were there for evangelistic purposes. To an extent they are still here today. However your friend ascribes to heresy to believe that one must speak in tongues or be charasmatic in nature to be saved. That is most certianly not true.
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Charismatic gifts are cool and everything... definitely not necessary for salvation and you always need the virtue of charity

[MilesChristi]

[quote]They believe that you're not really baptized unless you've been "baptized in the holy spirit" and can speak in tongues. [/quote]



The Holy Spirit does not bestow the same gifts on each person. Your roommate's belief seems to stand in direct opposition to 1 Corinthians 12.

[Q the Ninja]

If you're looking for something to read, go to St. Clement or St. Ignatius of Antioch. I think that they put in enough Catholic symbols and beliefs to make it obvious.

[jezic]

i think the gifts of the spirit are still in full force today. Their faith and need was just so different at that time period. Were we to act more like them i think things would be a bit different.

[iheartjp2]

WOOOOHOOOOO! CHARISMATIC CATHOLIC RIGHT HERE!!!!!

LOL! I go to Christ The King Catholic Church and we're charismatic. It is true that the charismatic demension of the church is important to it's nature. Pope John Paul II didn't exactly use the word "important", but he used one like it. Even our new Pope, Benedict XVI, he's condoned the charismatic renewal, as have the popes since the thing started in the church. Yes, there have been things like this for as long as the church has been around, though the "renewal" of this, as in, the widespread receiving of the gifts started in the 1960's. Lots of people don't think that this has ever existed and that this is a protestant incursion. Well, not so. There are many signs and wonders that the saints did, like speaking in different tongues that they haven't studied, healing, prophecy, words of knowledge, things like that, and you know what the funny thing is? They never call that some sort of "protestant incursion", but when some everyday catholic does something like speak in tongues or heal someone or give a prophecy, or give words of knowledge, they think that they're basically trying to be Protestant and Catholics. They claim that charismatics don't have fidelity to church teaching, but I find that charismatics are even more faithful than most others, not that some non-charismatics aren't on fire. It's just that in the charismatic renewal, you won't find virtually anyone who's not on fire for their church and for their faith in Jesus Christ.
For those who DO think that the charismatic gifts are there to receive, RIGHT ON, cuz that's exactly right. For those who don't, well, it's true!!

Edited June 24, 2005 by iheartjp2

[iheartjp2]

Also, I'd like to add that we do NOT believe that those gifts are actual sacraments or that you HAVE to receive them. They are gifts that God gives us for our own private and lots of times, since a lot of times the gifts are used in the midst of others, to build up the church, and to grow in holiness and in our spiritual life. Though, there are some gifts that can be used individually, like tongues. You can speak in tongues on your own by yourself, you don't have to speak in tongues around others. There's been lots of argument over this with non-charismatics because they seem to take 1 Corinthians 14:6-17 and go with that and say that since people don't interpret them usually, then they aren't valid, not looking first at verse 10, which says:

[i]"It happens that there are many different languages in the world, and none is meaningless; . . ." [/i] [NAB]

Also, at the beginning of the chapter, when Paul says that prophesy is better than [i]tongues[/i] , what he means by tongues, is simply
[i]praying[/i] in another language, because he says here in chapter 14, verses 1-3:

[i]"Pursue love, but strive eagerly for the spiritual gifts, above all that you may prophesy. [b]For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to human beaings, but to God[/b] , for no one listens; [b]he utters mysteries in spirit[/b] . On the other hand, [b]one who prophesies does speak to human beings[/b], for their building up, encouragement, and solace."[/i]

So there you have it. Not saying that anyone here objects, because so far, I haven't heard anyone, but just for those who might be confronted, here's a little ammunition.

Edited June 24, 2005 by iheartjp2

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='iheartjp2' date='Jun 23 2005, 08:45 PM']They never call that some sort of "protestant incursion", but when some everyday catholic does something like speak in tongues or heal someone or give a prophesy, or give words of knowledge, they think that they're basically trying to be Protestant and Catholics.
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I've got a lot of Protestant friends...and a lot of them talk about having this intense desire to heal people and exorcise demons... I know that the name of Jesus is very powerful, but at the same time, I wonder about what the role of ecclesiastical authority should be in these situations. In your parish, how are people healed, and how (and through whom) does the Holy Spirit manifest himself?

[iheartjp2]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Jun 23 2005, 07:07 PM']I've got a lot of Protestant friends...and a lot of them talk about having this intense desire to heal people and exorcise demons...  I know that the name of Jesus is very powerful, but at the same time, I wonder about what the role of ecclesiastical authority should be in these situations.  In your parish, how are people healed, and how (and through whom) does the Holy Spirit manifest himself?
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Well, in our diocese, we're under the jurisdiction of Bishop Carl Mengling, who is a fine bishop that's VERY in line with church teaching by the way. He knows what we do and he allows us by authority of the church, to do the things we do. At our parish, it's pretty minor. Not too much going on, not a lot of healing, though we have healing mass where the sacrament of the anointing of the sick is offered every first friday of the month. There isn't an exact way people are healed. They can be healed through prayer, they can be healed through the sacrament, which is pretty much the same thing. Can you be a little more specific when you speak of ways the Holy Spirit manifests itself?

We speak in tongues, during the mass, only twice, after the gloria and during communion, after the song, you know, a little time for praise and worship while and after we receive Jesus, stuff like that.

[jezic]

some people take it to far though, i think that is part of the semi-negative attitude on this board.

[kateri05]

you have P&W DURING mass? i feel like that's NOT in the GIRM

[kateri05]

btw, thats not me knocking the CR movement at all or even the charismatic gifts. certainly not my cup of tea, but i'm glad it's SOMEONE's since of course, they're pretty neat that being said, there is NEVER any excuse to mess with the Mass, no matter what approved movement you're in!

[jezic]

if you know you are speaking in tongues something is wrong.

The gift is extremely powerful. and honestly unless you have natives from different cultures who have different native languages you wouldn't know. That is what the gift did for the Apostles. They spoke and people heard it in their language.

It still happens today to people, but it is hard to find.

be cautious.

[iheartjp2]

[quote name='kateri05' date='Jun 23 2005, 08:01 PM']you have P&W DURING mass?  i feel like that's NOT in the GIRM 
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what I mean by that is that the communion song is usually a praise and worship song. There are traditional hymns in our song books (we have two, by the way, one that's green and another that's blue), but we also have songs that are written by Christian Artists (some a little more older than CCM), and we have some songs that were written by people in our community. We don't violate ANY part of the GIRM, our pastor makes sure we don't. Both our bishop and our pastor are very faithful to the teaching of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, and in a lot of ways, even more so than a lot of the others around us. I'm not saying that they're the very best, but they're pretty darn good on cracking down on things that AREN'T allowed at all, regardless of whether it's distinctly charismatic or not, because they just don't stand for it. It's not like we add a bunch of things to the mass that aren't supposed to be there, and we DEFINITELY don't take anything out. Our address is 4000 Ave Maria Dr. Ann Arbor, MI, 48105. If you're ever able, come check us out.

[jezic]

that is the worst time. The only time P&W should be is before or after Mass.

You just received Jesus. That takes some serious thought and thanksgiving. Bad time for praise and worship. It would be a good time for a reflective hymn and there are some really beautiful and meaningfull ones.

Then Praise and Worship can come later.

I am not against it, i just think it should be used outside of the Mass.

Edited June 24, 2005 by jezic

[iheartjp2]

[quote name='jezic' date='Jun 23 2005, 08:07 PM']if you know you are speaking in tongues something is wrong.

The gift is extremely powerful. and honestly unless you have natives from different cultures who have different native languages you wouldn't know. That is what the gift did for the Apostles. They spoke and people heard it in their language.

It still happens today to people, but it is hard to find.

be cautious.
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Not only that, but it has actually happened in our day and time that someone has heard someone speaking in tongues and heard a known language coming out of their mouth that they didn't study. Let's review some scripture on this, shall we . . .

[i]When the time for Penecost was fulfilled, they were all in one place together. And suddenly there came from the sky a noise like a strong driving wind, and it filled the entire house in which they were. Then there appeared on them tongues as of fire, which parted and came to rest on each of them. And they were filled with the holy spirit and began to speak in different tongues, as the Spirit enabled them to proclaim. Now there were devout Jews from every nation under heaven staying in Jerusalem. At this sound, [b]they gathered in a large crowd, but they were confused because each on heard them speakin in his own language. They were astounded, and in amazement they asked, "Are not all these people who are speaking Galileans? Then how does each of us hear them in his own native language? We are Parthians, Medes, and Elamites, inhabitants of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Libya near Cyrene, as well as travelers from Rome, both Jews and converts to Judaism, Cretans and Arabs, yet we hear them speaking in our own tongues of the might acts of God."[/b][/i] (Acts 2:1-11 NAB)

Our music director, Roger Holtz said that the theme for our Pentecost Weekend Conference that our theme should be, quoting verse 15, with a slight nuance:

"We are not drunk, as you suppose . . ."



The thing is, the gift of tongues was real then, and is just as real now. The church actually goes as far as to teach that these are in fact, real. If the church teaches it, how then can [i]you[/i] say otherwise, not that I'm replying to "bashing" or anything, because you claimed you weren't, just trying to set the record straight.

[iheartjp2]

[quote name='jezic' date='Jun 23 2005, 08:13 PM']that is the worst time. The only time P&W should be is before or after Mass.

You just received Jesus. That takes some serious thought and thanksgiving. Bad time for praise and worship. It would be a good time for a reflective hymn and there are some really beautiful and meaningfull ones.

Then Praise and Worship can come later.

I am not against it, i just think it should be used outside of the Mass.
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Well, that's a thought that we may be able to put into consideration, although there is opprotunity for deep thought and prayer after communion also, along with the singing of songs and praising in tongues and in english. Usually, we have more than one song, and we don't play that one right after the other, so there is a gap of time for that. As far as I know, never has it been known that someone felt like they were distracted by this and couldn't concentrate on their prayer. To me, it's all good.

[photosynthesis]

do you guys talk about "baptism in the holy spirit" what does that mean to Charismatic Catholics vs. Pentacostals?

[iheartjp2]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Jun 23 2005, 08:36 PM']do you guys talk about "baptism in the holy spirit"  what does that mean to Charismatic Catholics vs. Pentacostals?
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Let me answer this the best way I can now. I'll get back if I'm wrong, but I'm 98% sure that I'm right on this one, so no worries.

"Baptism in the Holy Spirit" in the Charismatic Catholic sense is not really a sacramental baptism of any kind, kind of like the baptism of bells, in a lot of ways. You see, with your baptism (now I'm talkin about the real deal here, aka, the sacrament), you receive these gifts, I'm not joking, this is true. The thing of it is, you have to open these gifts up. If someone gives you a present, but you never open it up, can you benefit from what's inside? Nope. Same concept with this. The "baptism" part comes when the God infuses and profuses you with his spirit and that is when these gifts are in a sense, "opened."


Now, I might be a little more wrong on this one, because even though I was raised Pentecostal myself, I never really got into it, and on top of that, even though it's about pretty much the same concept all around, there are, I think, probably quite a few nuances you'll hear depending on who you hear it from, and you'r rommate might even have a different version than me. There's no telling with this protestants, eh? Just keep your ears open when you're around them and you can probably build on some common ground there. I actually became Catholic to get away from it and went through RCIA at a regular, everyday Catholic church. What brought me to Christ The King Catholic Church is another story and anyone who wants to hear it, PM me and I'll PM it back to you.

Pentecostal "baptism in the Holy Spirit" is when you, to them, ACTUALLY receive the Holy Spirit, which is manifest in the gift of tongues, kind of like confirmation, only for that, tongues are not required. Without the gift of tongues, they don't believe you have the Holy Spirit, and they say you can't be saved without the Holy Spirit, though some may lean a litte on either side on whether or not you can be saved, depends on how what version you get first and foremost, and then on how conservative or liberal they are to the teachings of their denomination or even the pastor of their own congregation. It's tricky, but I'm pretty sure that's one you'll hear.

Sorry this post is so long, it must smell of elderberries for you to read it all!