the Charismatic gifts

[photosynthesis]

My roommate's been going to a Pentacostal Church in the Assembly of God denomination. They're really focused on the gifts of the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit in general. They believe that you're not really baptized unless you've been "baptized in the holy spirit" and can speak in tongues. Also, they are really focused on healing and deliverance from demons.

We got into a discussion of the Early Church... I was arguing that the Early Church was Catholic in all respects -- they honored the Blessed Mother, they celebrated the Eucharist and they had a Pope and sacraments and all that good stuff... She argued that the Early Church was Pentacostal in nature, in that they spoke in tongues, miraculously healed people and delivered people from demons...

What do you think of this? I know that the Catholic Church has, thoughout history, healed many people through Annointing of the Sick, and the powerful intercession of the saints. I know that there are Catholics who speak in tongues, and I know that they still do exorcisms, although it's not as common.

How do I prove to her that the Early Church is Catholic? Are there any patristic writings I should read?

I guess it seems that the fundamental difference is.... Pentacostals believe that it's all about the gifts of the Holy Spirit, but Catholics believe that the Eucharist is the source and summit of our faith.

[Brother Adam]

The early Church was both - the gifts of the Holy Spirit are biblical and were there for evangelistic purposes. To an extent they are still here today. However your friend ascribes to heresy to believe that one must speak in tongues or be charasmatic in nature to be saved. That is most certianly not true.

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Jun 22 2005, 10:15 PM']The early Church was both - the gifts of the Holy Spirit are biblical and were there for evangelistic purposes. To an extent they are still here today. However your friend ascribes to heresy to believe that one must speak in tongues or be charasmatic in nature to be saved. That is most certianly not true.
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Charismatic gifts are cool and everything... definitely not necessary for salvation and you always need the virtue of charity

[MilesChristi]

[quote]They believe that you're not really baptized unless you've been "baptized in the holy spirit" and can speak in tongues. [/quote]



The Holy Spirit does not bestow the same gifts on each person. Your roommate's belief seems to stand in direct opposition to 1 Corinthians 12.

[Q the Ninja]

If you're looking for something to read, go to St. Clement or St. Ignatius of Antioch. I think that they put in enough Catholic symbols and beliefs to make it obvious.

[jezic]

i think the gifts of the spirit are still in full force today. Their faith and need was just so different at that time period. Were we to act more like them i think things would be a bit different.

[iheartjp2]

WOOOOHOOOOO! CHARISMATIC CATHOLIC RIGHT HERE!!!!!

LOL! I go to Christ The King Catholic Church and we're charismatic. It is true that the charismatic demension of the church is important to it's nature. Pope John Paul II didn't exactly use the word "important", but he used one like it. Even our new Pope, Benedict XVI, he's condoned the charismatic renewal, as have the popes since the thing started in the church. Yes, there have been things like this for as long as the church has been around, though the "renewal" of this, as in, the widespread receiving of the gifts started in the 1960's. Lots of people don't think that this has ever existed and that this is a protestant incursion. Well, not so. There are many signs and wonders that the saints did, like speaking in different tongues that they haven't studied, healing, prophecy, words of knowledge, things like that, and you know what the funny thing is? They never call that some sort of "protestant incursion", but when some everyday catholic does something like speak in tongues or heal someone or give a prophecy, or give words of knowledge, they think that they're basically trying to be Protestant and Catholics. They claim that charismatics don't have fidelity to church teaching, but I find that charismatics are even more faithful than most others, not that some non-charismatics aren't on fire. It's just that in the charismatic renewal, you won't find virtually anyone who's not on fire for their church and for their faith in Jesus Christ.
For those who DO think that the charismatic gifts are there to receive, RIGHT ON, cuz that's exactly right. For those who don't, well, it's true!!

Edited June 24, 2005 by iheartjp2

[iheartjp2]

Also, I'd like to add that we do NOT believe that those gifts are actual sacraments or that you HAVE to receive them. They are gifts that God gives us for our own private and lots of times, since a lot of times the gifts are used in the midst of others, to build up the church, and to grow in holiness and in our spiritual life. Though, there are some gifts that can be used individually, like tongues. You can speak in tongues on your own by yourself, you don't have to speak in tongues around others. There's been lots of argument over this with non-charismatics because they seem to take 1 Corinthians 14:6-17 and go with that and say that since people don't interpret them usually, then they aren't valid, not looking first at verse 10, which says:

[i]"It happens that there are many different languages in the world, and none is meaningless; . . ." [/i] [NAB]

Also, at the beginning of the chapter, when Paul says that prophesy is better than [i]tongues[/i] , what he means by tongues, is simply
[i]praying[/i] in another language, because he says here in chapter 14, verses 1-3:

[i]"Pursue love, but strive eagerly for the spiritual gifts, above all that you may prophesy. [b]For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to human beaings, but to God[/b] , for no one listens; [b]he utters mysteries in spirit[/b] . On the other hand, [b]one who prophesies does speak to human beings[/b], for their building up, encouragement, and solace."[/i]

So there you have it. Not saying that anyone here objects, because so far, I haven't heard anyone, but just for those who might be confronted, here's a little ammunition.

Edited June 24, 2005 by iheartjp2

[photosynthesis]

[quote name='iheartjp2' date='Jun 23 2005, 08:45 PM']They never call that some sort of "protestant incursion", but when some everyday catholic does something like speak in tongues or heal someone or give a prophesy, or give words of knowledge, they think that they're basically trying to be Protestant and Catholics.
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I've got a lot of Protestant friends...and a lot of them talk about having this intense desire to heal people and exorcise demons... I know that the name of Jesus is very powerful, but at the same time, I wonder about what the role of ecclesiastical authority should be in these situations. In your parish, how are people healed, and how (and through whom) does the Holy Spirit manifest himself?

[iheartjp2]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Jun 23 2005, 07:07 PM']I've got a lot of Protestant friends...and a lot of them talk about having this intense desire to heal people and exorcise demons...  I know that the name of Jesus is very powerful, but at the same time, I wonder about what the role of ecclesiastical authority should be in these situations.  In your parish, how are people healed, and how (and through whom) does the Holy Spirit manifest himself?
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Well, in our diocese, we're under the jurisdiction of Bishop Carl Mengling, who is a fine bishop that's VERY in line with church teaching by the way. He knows what we do and he allows us by authority of the church, to do the things we do. At our parish, it's pretty minor. Not too much going on, not a lot of healing, though we have healing mass where the sacrament of the anointing of the sick is offered every first friday of the month. There isn't an exact way people are healed. They can be healed through prayer, they can be healed through the sacrament, which is pretty much the same thing. Can you be a little more specific when you speak of ways the Holy Spirit manifests itself?

We speak in tongues, during the mass, only twice, after the gloria and during communion, after the song, you know, a little time for praise and worship while and after we receive Jesus, stuff like that.

[jezic]

some people take it to far though, i think that is part of the semi-negative attitude on this board.

[kateri05]

you have P&W DURING mass? i feel like that's NOT in the GIRM

[kateri05]

btw, thats not me knocking the CR movement at all or even the charismatic gifts. certainly not my cup of tea, but i'm glad it's SOMEONE's since of course, they're pretty neat that being said, there is NEVER any excuse to mess with the Mass, no matter what approved movement you're in!

[jezic]

if you know you are speaking in tongues something is wrong.

The gift is extremely powerful. and honestly unless you have natives from different cultures who have different native languages you wouldn't know. That is what the gift did for the Apostles. They spoke and people heard it in their language.

It still happens today to people, but it is hard to find.

be cautious.

[iheartjp2]

[quote name='kateri05' date='Jun 23 2005, 08:01 PM']you have P&W DURING mass?  i feel like that's NOT in the GIRM 
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what I mean by that is that the communion song is usually a praise and worship song. There are traditional hymns in our song books (we have two, by the way, one that's green and another that's blue), but we also have songs that are written by Christian Artists (some a little more older than CCM), and we have some songs that were written by people in our community. We don't violate ANY part of the GIRM, our pastor makes sure we don't. Both our bishop and our pastor are very faithful to the teaching of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, and in a lot of ways, even more so than a lot of the others around us. I'm not saying that they're the very best, but they're pretty darn good on cracking down on things that AREN'T allowed at all, regardless of whether it's distinctly charismatic or not, because they just don't stand for it. It's not like we add a bunch of things to the mass that aren't supposed to be there, and we DEFINITELY don't take anything out. Our address is 4000 Ave Maria Dr. Ann Arbor, MI, 48105. If you're ever able, come check us out.