The Scandals

[Guest Eremite]

No.

Homosexuality is a disorder of the human person. It doesn't just "go away" when you become a Catholic.

Ditto with Pedophilia.

[philothea]

[quote name='MC Just' date='Jun 24 2005, 12:51 PM']I want to build a orginization that will help rid the church in america of heterodoxy. Anyone interested in helping, let me know. lol i'm actually not kidding. I'm thinking something called "voice of orthodoxy".
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I'm in.

[Noel's angel]

Maybe an organisation should be set up to promote charity in the Church too, since that seems to have gone out the door with a lot of people...

[LittleLes]

In all the claims being made about homosexuals in the seminaries, if it is true and there is a priest shortage, why are heterosexual men no longer attracted to the priesthood, but homosexual men are?

It should make you wonder about the priesthood if that is really the case.

LitleLes

[Didacus]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Jun 24 2005, 01:00 PM'][snip]A heterosexual man addicted to pornography is also unsuitable for the priesthood, but for a different reason. Although his sexual appetite is correctly ordered, it lacks temperance, and like homosexuality and pedophilia, masks a deeper psychological problem.
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In other words, homosexuality is a symptom, not the cause of the disordered state. Similarly, heterosexuality is not the cause of an ordered state, the cause in this case is a healthy attraction ordained by God Himself within His natural law.

(correct me if I am wrong Eremite)

[Guest Eremite]

Didacus,

That sounds about right to me. A psychological problem might manifest itself through homosexuality, or through some other disordered consequence, such as drug abuse or depression.

My grandmother had 5 kids who all grew up in the same house, and my grandfather was a mean drunk. They all have different problems (I have a gay uncle, my deceased aunt was an alcoholic, my other uncle is a druggie, my other aunt is really distant, and my mother is the most well adjusted among them). People develop and react to things differently.

[Socrates]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Jun 24 2005, 02:18 PM']In all the claims being made about homosexuals in the seminaries, if it is true and there is a priest shortage, why are heterosexual men no longer attracted to the priesthood, but homosexual men are?

It should make you wonder about the priesthood if that is really the case.

LitleLes
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There are in fact many good, "heterosexual" men in the priesthood and seminaries. I know quite a few of them personally.
Where the Faith is practiced and orthdodoxy is taught, good men are called to the priesthood. I know this from experience. In my diocese, which is largely orthodox, and has good seminaries, the seminaries are full and there are many good men being ordained to the priesthood, as well as good priests.

We were discussing the root of the priestly abuse scandals (which certainly does not involve the majority of priests!) The bishops and priests involved were largely liberal, rather than obedient to Rome.

LittleLes, it is clear that you are not really interested in the issues involved here, nor the facts, but are (as always) only interested in using this thread as an opportunity to bash the Church.

Edited June 24, 2005 by Socrates

[jezic]

was the root of the scandals homosexuality?

[Didacus]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Jun 24 2005, 02:36 PM']Didacus,

That sounds about right to me. A psychological problem might manifest itself through homosexuality, or through some other disordered consequence, such as drug abuse or depression.

My grandmother had 5 kids who all grew up in the same house, and my grandfather was a mean drunk. They all have different problems (I have a gay uncle, my deceased aunt was an alcoholic, my other uncle is a druggie, my other aunt is really distant, and my mother is the most well adjusted among them). People develop and react to things differently.
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Wwo, it actually feels kinda good to something right for a change... even if it is just 'about right'.

*sniff*

[Socrates]

[quote name='jezic' date='Jun 24 2005, 02:48 PM']was the root of the scandals homosexuality?
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It was definitely a root factor. The vast majority of the priestly abuse scandals involved teenage boys. (And whether you want to call this homosexuality, ephebophilia, or whatever is splitting hairs as far as I'm concerned.)
The fact is that most ot the scandals did not involve heterosexual behavior.

Of course, I'd say the ultimate root of the scandals is Satan's hatred for the priesthood.

Edited June 24, 2005 by Socrates

[Jaime]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Jun 24 2005, 01:00 PM']As I explained above, heterosexual men do not have a disorder of the sexual appetite. Their appetite is naturally ordered to women.

Homosexuals, pedophiles, and men attracted to hamburgers have an unnatural object of sexual affection. Their appetite is unnaturally ordered to something other than women.

A heterosexual man addicted to pornography is also unsuitable for the priesthood, but for a different reason. Although his sexual appetite is correctly ordered, it lacks temperance, and like homosexuality and pedophilia, masks a deeper psychological problem.

Our sexuality is intimately bound with with our entire psychology. The priesthood requires a man of sound psychological health; particularly sexual health, since the demands of celibacy, and its interconnectedness with the entire person, play such a big role in a priestly ministry. This is why the Church made clear in 1961:
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No that is incorrect

Lust is disordered
CCC 2351
[quote] Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes.[/quote]

Also

CCC 2352[quote]By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."[/quote]

Let's keep our facts straight. A people without same sex attractions can very easily have disordered thoughts and actions

[Didacus]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Jun 24 2005, 03:01 PM']Let's keep our facts straight. A people without same sex attractions can very easily have disordered thoughts and actions
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Agreed, let's get them straight:

CCC

[quote]2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, [b]tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered." [/b]They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.[/quote]

Emphasis my own...

Homosexuality is disordered as well...

Edited June 24, 2005 by Didacus

[jezic]

[quote]tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."[/quote]

but no one is debating that ....

[Didacus]

I thought it put support to eremites post, noted by hot stuff as being incorrect. He claims lust as disordered, when eremite makes allusion that homosexuality is disordered. I just wanted to add that CCC quote to make the point that hot stuff was hitting to the side of eremite's post...

*sorry8 *sob*
[i]or maybe it was just me trying to look smart again? geesh you people are hard to keep up with...[/i]

[jezic]

there is no harm in quoting the catechism. It is to people's benefit.

[Guest Eremite]

[quote]Lust is disordered[/quote]

Yes, lust is disordered. But the question is [i]how[/i]:

[quote]Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure.[/quote]

Lust is a disorder of temperance, not a disorder of the object of sexual attraction.

[quote] "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."[/quote]

Here, again, masturbation is said to be a disordered "action", not a disordered object of the sexual appetite.

Homosexuality is unique from heterosexual lust in that it goes beyond a disorder of temperance. It replaces the natural object of sexual affection with an unnatural object, namely, a person of the same sex.

Heterosexual lust is a disordered desire for something good in itself (ie, sexual relations between man and woman), whereas homosexual lust is a disordered desire for something wrong in itself (ie, sexual relations between persons of the same sex).

[quote]people without same sex attractions can very easily have disordered thoughts and actions[/quote]

Of course they can. And depending upon the nature and extent of those disordered thoughts and actions, they too are barred from the priesthood (eg, pedophiles).

[Jaime]

[quote]Here, again, masturbation is said to be a disordered "action", not a disordered object of the sexual appetite.
[/quote]

The homosexual action is disordered
The action of masturbation is disordered

The inclination to masturbate is disordered
The inclination to same sex attraction is disordered


You are making distinctions that do not exist. There are not degrees of disordered sins or inclination.

You cannot say "masturbation and lust is bad but it sure ain't as big a sin as homosexual acts"

[Guest Eremite]

[quote]The homosexual action is disordered
The action of masturbation is disordered
[/quote]

We are not speaking of homosexual "actions". We are speaking of homosexual affections.

The object of homosexual lust (whether it is carried out or not) is unnatural.

The object of heterosexual lust (whether it is carried out or not) is natural.

[quote]The inclination to masturbate is disordered
The inclination to same sex attraction is disordered[/quote]

You are here confusing an action with an "attraction".

The inclination to homosexual (or heterosexual) [i]actions[/i] are both disordered, because they are both inclinations to the same thing, that is, unlawful sexual pleasure.

The inclination to homosexual [i]attraction[/i], however, is uniquely disordered. The object of this attraction is a person of the same sex, which is an unnatural object of sexual attraction.

The object of heterosexual attraction is a person of the opposite sex, which is a natural object of sexual attraction.

Heterosexual masturbation/lust is a disordered (inordinate) desire for something natural (ie, relations with a woman). It is a disorder of temperance.

Homosexual acts/lust is a disordered desire for something unnatural (ie, relations with a person of the same sex). It is more than a disorder of temperance; it is a disorder of object.

[quote] There are not degrees of disordered sins or inclination.[/quote]

Of course there are. One man's disordered inclination may be limited to pornography, while another man's disordered inclination may extend to rape.

[quote]You cannot say "masturbation and lust is bad but it sure ain't as big a sin as homosexual acts" [/quote]

Again, this discussion is not about "acts". As I made clear at the beginning, a homosexual man's chastity has nothing to do with his suitability for the priesthood.

The object of homosexual affection is unnatural. The object of heterosexual affection is natural, but disordered in temperance.

This is an important distinction, because wanting too much of something (eg, relations with a woman) is of a different character than wanting something unnatural (eg, relations with a hamburger).

[jezic]

how can you distinguish between the magnitudes of sin in God's eyes?

[Guest Eremite]

[quote name='jezic' date='Jun 24 2005, 03:50 PM']how can you distinguish between the magnitudes of sin in God's eyes? 
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Because if we didn't, murdering 6,000 people would be no different than stealing a penny.