The Scandals

[Socrates]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Jun 24 2005, 03:53 PM']Because if we didn't, murdering 6,000 people would be no different than stealing a penny.
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[/quote]

Didn't one of our Protestant friends recently make this claim?

[Apotheoun]

The distinction that Eremite is making between [i]natural[/i] and [i]unnatural[/i] disordered inclinations and desires is traditional within Catholic moral theology. He is correct.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Jun 24 2005, 03:30 PM']The homosexual action is disordered
The action of masturbation is disordered

The inclination to masturbate is disordered
The inclination to same sex attraction is disordered
You are making distinctions that do not exist.  There are not degrees of disordered sins or inclination. 

You cannot say "masturbation and lust is bad but it sure ain't as big a sin as homosexual acts"
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[/quote]

Actually Jamie you most cetianly can, Fornication is not as bad as adultery, adultery is not as Bad as homosexual sex, homosexual sex is not as bad as sex with a prepubescent child. Where would you get the Idea that one cannot have degrees of disordered sin, there are degrees of sin all over the place. Lying about sleeping in late is not as bad as lying under oath etc.

I think also you must rrealize that no one defines who they are by materbation, ther are Hetrosexuals and homosexuals but home many people are monosexuals?

Edited June 24, 2005 by Don John of Austria

[Don John of Austria]

I think the end times must be near, because Apotheoun, Socrates, Erimite and I all actually agree! This is shocking in the extreme.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Jun 24 2005, 05:01 PM']I think the end times must be near, because Apotheoun, Socrates, Erimite and I all actually agree! This is shocking in the extreme.
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People have been posting some funny quotes today!!

[Apotheoun]

The sin of Sodom has traditionally been named as one of the four sins that cries to heaven for vengeance.

[philothea]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Jun 24 2005, 05:01 PM']I think the end times must be near, because Apotheoun, Socrates, Erimite and I all actually agree! This is shocking in the extreme.
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If hot stuff agrees too, I'm heading for the hills.

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jun 24 2005, 04:03 PM']The distinction that Eremite is making between [i]natural[/i] and [i]unnatural[/i] disordered inclinations and desires is traditional within Catholic moral theology.  He is correct.
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[/quote]

RESPONSE:

Yes, the distinction is indeed "traditional." However, that has nothing to do with whether it is correct or even relevant.

For example, rape is "natural." Masturbation is "unnatural." But somehow "unnatural" lusts are worse than natural ones.

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jun 24 2005, 05:06 PM']The sin of Sodom has traditionally been named as one of the four sins that cries to heaven for vengeance.
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RESPONES:

Careful now! What prescisely was the sin of Sodom?

[Guest Eremite]

[quote]I think the end times must be near, because Apotheoun, Socrates, Erimite and I all actually agree! [/quote]

[Socrates]

[quote name='philothea' date='Jun 24 2005, 05:08 PM']If hot stuff agrees too, I'm heading for the hills.
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[/quote]

Well just let me know if LittleLes agrees. That would indeed be a sign and a wonder!

[philothea]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Jun 24 2005, 06:32 PM']Well just let me know if LittleLes agrees.  That would indeed be a sign and a wonder!
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If [i]that[/i] happens someone has hacked Phatmass.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Jun 24 2005, 04:03 PM']Careful now!  What prescisely was the sin of Sodom?
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The meaning of the phrase in my post is identical to that given in the tradition of the Church, which was reaffirmed in the CDF Instruction [u]Homosexualitatis Problema[/u], no. 6.

[jezic]

one last question,

how does barring people from seminaries for being homosexual solve the problem?

[Socrates]

[quote name='jezic' date='Jun 24 2005, 08:53 PM']one last question,

how does barring people from seminaries for being homosexual solve the problem?
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[/quote]

Hasn't this been explained enough already?

No homosexual seminarians, no homosexual priest scandals.
People need to start facing the facts and using logic, rather than trying to be politically correct all the time.

[MC Just]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Jun 24 2005, 09:18 PM']Hasn't this been explained enough already?

No homosexual seminarians, no homosexual priest scandals. 
People need to start facing the facts and using logic, rather than trying to be politically correct all the time.
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[/quote]

Exactly. Some of the bishops need to start using their authority and kick the heterodox out.

[Jaime]

[quote name='MC Just' date='Jun 24 2005, 09:20 PM']Exactly. Some of the bishops need to start using their authority and kick the heterodox out.
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[/quote]


See this is where I bristle.

Because one has the capacity to sin does not make one heterodox. If a priest chooses to break his vows of celibacy, through hetero or homosexual actions, then he dissents from church teachings and he should be dealt with.

I've known chaste and celibate men who struggled with homosexual attractions. They have been good and holy priests. I've known unchaste priests who packed up their girlfriends and moved them to their next assignment with them.

I completely disagree that an attraction automatically makes one heterodox.

Yes Ap there are sins that cry to heaven. But it is not the inclination that cries to heaven, it is the action.

[LittleLes]

[quote name='MC Just' date='Jun 24 2005, 09:20 PM']Exactly. Some of the bishops need to start using their authority and kick the heterodox out.
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RESPONSE:

There's a serious priest shortage now. If those with "heterodox" beliefs were kicked out, how many priests would be left?

But more importantly, what about the "heterodox" bishops? Do they get kicked out too?

[Cam42]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Jun 25 2005, 08:27 AM']RESPONSE:

There's a serious priest shortage now. If those with "heterodox" beliefs were kicked out, how many priests would be left?

But more importantly, what about the "heterodox" bishops? Do they get kicked out too?
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[/quote]

They should be rehabilitated....if possible and reconciled to the Church. I disagree with all who say that the "heterodox" should simply be kicked out. That is not the attitude that should be taken.

What should be done is rehabilitation. If they cannot be rehabilitated, then they don't need to be kicked out, they have left.

There is not a serious priest shortage worldwide. That is a myth perpetuated by the media. There is a shortage in the USA. For years we have sent missionaries out to other lands, perhaps they should now return the favor. Ebb and flow.....it is the nature of the priesthood. There are up times and there are down times.....as with everything else.

[MC Just]

Then what should we do? keep saying "all we need is love" and let the evil people take over? like weve been doing in this country all along?

We let the heterodox have their way with our church during the sick and disgusting 60's and 70's and we end up with the worst scandal in our history.

It's time to stop using "love, humility and charity" as excuses to sit back and do nothing.