Mystical Theology

[Semperviva]

[color=green]Mystical Theology[/color]


The science which treats of acts and experiences or states of the soul which cannot be produced by human effort or industry even with the ordinary aid of Divine grace. [b]It comprises among its subjects all extraordinary forms of prayer, the higher forms of contemplation in all their varieties or gradations, private revelations, visions, and the union growing out of these between God and the soul, known as the mystical union[/b].
As the science of all that is extraordinary in the relations between the Divinity and the human spirit, mystical theology is the complement of ascetical, which treats of Christian perfection and of its acquisition by the practice of virtue, particularly by the observance of the counsels.

.............So does this mean that the practise of virtue leads to mystical experience? I don't mean in every instance but generally? Can any one translate the above definition ?

Edited June 25, 2005 by Semperviva

[philothea]

Yes, that sounds right to me. According to St. John of the Cross and St. Teresa of Avila, praticing virtue as best you can and comitting yourself to regular prayer, will lead (for most people) fairly quicky to infused contemplation.

We talked about this some in the Vocation Station under the topic "Contemplation" (the topic wandered a bit, as they tend to.) My summary of getting started is [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=34438#"]here.[/url]

Keep in mind though, the visions and revelations are considered... hrmn, how to phrase it. Chaff? Useless and to be ignored, generally. Infused contemplation normally has no images, no sounds, and no concepts at all.

(Jezic will be laughing at me now that someone else brought up my fave subject! )

[Guest Eremite]

Here's St. John of the Cross in a nutshell:

[quote]To reach satisfaction in all
Desire its possession in nothing,
To come to the knowledge of all
Desire the knowledge of nothing.
To come to possess all
Desire the possession of nothing.
To arrive at being all
Desire to be nothing.
To come to the pleasure you have not
You must go by a way in which you enjoy not.
To come to the knowledge you have not
You must go by a way in which you know not.
To come to the possession you have not
You must go by a way in which you possess not.
To come to be what you are not
You must go by a way in which you are not.
When you turn toward something
You cease to cast yourself upon the all,
For to go from the all to the all
You must possess it without wanting anything.
In this nakedness the spirit finds its rest,
for when it covets nothing
nothing raises it up and nothing weighs it down,
because it stands in the centre of its humility.[/quote]

[Semperviva]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Jun 25 2005, 06:49 PM']Here's St. John of the Cross in a nutshell:
[right][snapback]623473[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]


Aaah,wnderul. Thanks. If we have anything less than this kindof mystical spirituality, we'll never really get it, it seems to me. What do u think?

[Guest Eremite]

Yah, detachment is the key.

It gets hard because even when we think we're doing good, we may just be stagnant. For example, St. John of the Cross talks about a "spiritual sweet tooth" that looks for consolation and personal gain, rather than embracing the dark night of the soul. It's easy to fall into something like this because we're still praying and trying to carry out the spiritual life; but we're running on ice.

[Semperviva]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Jun 25 2005, 06:57 PM'] For example, St. John of the Cross talks about a "spiritual sweet tooth" that looks for consolation and personal gain, rather than embracing the dark night of the soul.
[right][snapback]623476[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]


so i wanna know more of your thoughts on this- i have always felt a sortof John of the cross type spirituality, but i [b]never read anything of his and then when i did i was like whoa, thats it, thats it right there[/b].... but you say the key is [b]embracing[/b] the dark night of the soul...??
you see, i think J.o.c. said the spritual life is like a ladder, consolation, desolation, etcetc...but how can we humanly not want to embrace the consolations, I knooooow he says we should "run from them" the consolations, i think, right? which i totally agree we should...but say if one experiences wonderful spiritual consolation and it stops...like visions...how on earth does one gain the strength to embrace the darkness? (lol, how on earth, wrong choice of colloquialism)

Edited June 26, 2005 by Semperviva

[Guest Eremite]

[quote]i have always felt a sortof John of the cross type spirituality, but i never read anything of his and then when i did i was like whoa, thats it, thats it right there[/quote]

I felt the same way when I first learned about him. That's why I took him as my patron, and whenever I get confirmed, I plan on taking the name Juan Cruz.

[quote]how can we humanly not want to embrace the consolations[/quote]

This is the great struggle. It's just a matter of constant denial and detachment.

The thing about John of the Cross is that his writings are of best use to his friars, who could really detach themselves from everything. But lay people have to adapt them to their lives, which can't be a complete outward detachment. But even in the midst of our lives, we can be detached from things.

JOTC answers a lot of your questions in the Ascent of Mount Carmel, Book 2:

[url="http://www.ccel.org/j/john_of_the_cross/ascent/book2.html"]http://www.ccel.org/j/john_of_the_cross/ascent/book2.html[/url]

See, in particular, chapter 7:

[quote]I would, then, that I could convince spiritual persons that this road to God consists not in a multiplicity of meditations nor in ways or methods of such, nor in consolations, although these things may in their own way be necessary to beginners; but that it consists only in the one thing that is needful, which is the ability to deny oneself truly, according to that which is without and to that which is within, giving oneself up to suffering for Christ's sake, and to total annihilation. For the soul that practises this suffering and annihilation will achieve all that those other exercises can achieve, and that can be found in them, and even more. And if a soul be found wanting in this exercise, which is the sum and root of the virtues, all its other methods are so much beating about the bush, and profiting not at all, although its meditations and communications may be as lofty as those of the angels. For progress comes not save through the imitation of Christ, Who is the Way, the Truth and the Life, and no man comes to the Father but by Him, even as He Himself says through Saint John.[250] And elsewhere He says: 'I am the door; by Me if any man enter he shall be saved.'[251] Wherefore, as it seems to me, any spirituality that would fain walk in sweetness and with ease, and flees from the imitation of Christ, is worthless.[/quote]

I bought this cool book about JOTC last week:

[url="http://www.icspublications.org/bookstore/cross/b_cross04.html"]http://www.icspublications.org/bookstore/c.../b_cross04.html[/url]

[philothea]

[quote name='Semperviva' date='Jun 25 2005, 07:14 PM']...but how can we humanly not want to embrace the consolations, I knooooow he says we should "run from them" the consolations, i think, right?  which i totally agree we should...but say if one experiences wonderful spiritual consolation and it stops...like visions...how on earth does one gain the strength to embrace the darkness? (lol, how on earth, wrong choice of colloquialism)
[right][snapback]623488[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
(All of the following is from the teachings of St. John of the Cross. I am not smart enough to come up with this stuff on my own. )

There are two "nights" and two parts to each night: active and passive. Active is what you can do, passive is what God does in you.

The first active night is where you try your best to deny your desires. Obviously (as anyone who tries it knows) you can only affect your actual behvior. You can (maybe) make yourself not eat the yummy food, say, but you can't make yourself not [i]want[/i] it, or not enjoy it when you have it. Not even [i]wanting[/i] these things-that-are-not-God is what we are suppposed to achieve.

So. That's where the passive night comes in. In infused contemplation, God himself purifies your desires so you no longer have an attachment to these things. In the (first) Night of Sense, you are purified from your attachment to physical satisfactions. In the (second) Night of Spirit, you are purified from you attachment to spiritual delights.

[Semperviva]

[quote name='philothea' date='Jun 25 2005, 07:40 PM'] In the (second) Night of Spirit, you are purified from you attachment to spiritual delights.
[right][snapback]623530[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
OK thanks- this one is awesome to know about, because i maybe experienced some kindof visions,etc, and i loved it, lol, not exactly run from it like jotc says...and this is it...its what i was missing the night of the spirit, i mean it happened but i diden't accpet it...THANK YOU SOSOS OMUCH [b]amici[/b]

[philothea]

[quote name='Semperviva' date='Jun 25 2005, 07:45 PM']OK thanks- this one is awesome to know about, because i maybe experienced some kindof visions,etc, and i loved it, lol, not exactly run from it like jotc says...and this is it...its what i was missing the night of the spirit, i mean it happened but i diden't accpet it...THANK YOU SOSOS OMUCH [b]amici[/b]
[right][snapback]623542[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
Glad to help!

I think, alas, we're all missing the Night of Spirit... after you pass through that, you're as conformed to God's will as you can be in this life (a saint, basically).

It's exceedingly awful, comparable to purgatory. :ph34r:

[philothea]

Another thing, on visions. The primary reason to "deny" them is that anything your senses can percieve is not a likeness of God, [b]even if the vision comes from God[/b].

From St. John of the Cross, [i]Ascent of Mount Carmel[/i] Book 2, chapter 24, number 8:
[quote]These visions cannot serve the intellect as proximate means for union with God because they deal with creatures, which bear no proportion or essential conformity to God.  Consequently, to advance by the proximate means, which is faith, a person should behave in a purely negative way as with the other visions we mentioned.  Souls should not store up or treasure the forms of these visions impressed within, neither should they have the desire to cling to them.  In doing so they would impede themselves by what dwells within them (those forms, images, and figures of persons), and they would not journey to God through the negation of all things.[/quote]

[Semperviva]

[quote name='philothea' date='Jun 25 2005, 08:25 PM']Another thing, on visions.  The primary reason to "deny" them is that anything your senses can percieve is not a likeness of God, [b]even if the vision comes from God[/b].

From St. John of the Cross, [i]Ascent of Mount Carmel[/i] Book 2, chapter 24, number 8:
[right][snapback]623645[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

.......grazie! this helps alot...where else can i find his writings on visions

[philothea]

The links Eremite posted above are from Christian Classics Ethereal Library. (www.ccel.org) John's works are [url="http://www.ccel.org/j/john_of_the_cross/"]here.[/url] (E. Allison Peers's translation)

I'm copying from Kieran Kavanaugh's translation, which is supposed to be available online, but the link isn't working.

In either case, the text is kind of... dense. If you have any questions, I can try to help.

[Semperviva]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Jun 25 2005, 07:25 PM']I felt the same way when I first learned about him. That's why I took him as my patron, and whenever I get confirmed, I plan on taking the name Juan Cruz.


[right][snapback]623505[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

awesome!!!
BTW: JOTC says the expression [b][i]"beating around the bush[/i][/b]" !?!??!?!?!??!?!??

THIS IS AWESOME!

...........does this expression really refer to the burning bush??!?!?!? Hahaha! JK, but hey- it could be!

[Apotheoun]

In the Byzantine tradition all theology is mystical theology, because doing theology is not an intellectual exercise; rather, it is an experience of God through the gift of His uncreated energies.

[philothea]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jun 25 2005, 10:33 PM']In the Byzantine tradition all theology is mystical theology, because doing theology is not an intellectual exercise; rather, it is an experience of the God through the gift of  His uncreated energies.
[right][snapback]623853[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
I was thinking of you when I posted the above.

(Conversely, in your earlier posts on "The Masculinity of God" I was reminded of St. John of the Cross.)

See, some of us westerners get it too.

[jezic]

this is a good line of thought and an amazing one.

Two notes of caution, as always.

The path is easier to fall from in the pursuit of this type of life

and two there is no way to achieve it. it must be granted. There are ways to make this likely because in His great Love and Mercy God grants to those who seek, but not always. This is for their benefit. Be careful that you understand it as a grace that can be taken at any time.

Dark nights are very trying for the spirit. One cannot hope to approach the first one exactly as our brother John of the Cross illustrates because his understanding comes after great trials and many times of perfections. his work can help prepare a soul, but it will not make the night any easier.

[Semperviva]

[quote name='jezic' date='Jun 25 2005, 11:31 PM']The path is easier to fall from in the pursuit of this type of life
[right][snapback]623902[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

How?

[corban711]

i almost never do this...but i must let out a big complaint that i have. so many times when someone is suffering i hear people say, "well you are going through the dark night of the soul." oh my! certainly their trials are a "dark night" of sorts, one that can even make them holy, but those in the dark night as John/Teresa talk of it, are basically at the heights of holiness. thank you for pointing that out (i forget who it was right now, but they said something to the effect that it is for those who are very conformed to God's will)!

Fr. Thomas Dubay says that many people reach the first night, the night of the sense, but not that many pass through it. often because of the lack of spiritual direction to be guided through it. i am so happy it is being talked about here! i love talking about the spiritual life!

also, the Congregation my brother belongs to, the Community of St. John studies a lot of mystical theology. it is a very important, although mostly forgotten, branch of theology.

[Semperviva]

does your brother know Mr. Brown's brother? lol...from the same community..