philothea Posted June 26, 2005 Share Posted June 26, 2005 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jun 25 2005, 10:33 PM']In the Byzantine tradition all theology is mystical theology, because doing theology is not an intellectual exercise; rather, it is an experience of the God through the gift of His uncreated energies. [right][snapback]623853[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I was thinking of you when I posted the above. (Conversely, in your earlier posts on "The Masculinity of God" I was reminded of St. John of the Cross.) See, some of us westerners get it too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jezic Posted June 26, 2005 Share Posted June 26, 2005 this is a good line of thought and an amazing one. Two notes of caution, as always. The path is easier to fall from in the pursuit of this type of life and two there is no way to achieve it. it must be granted. There are ways to make this likely because in His great Love and Mercy God grants to those who seek, but not always. This is for their benefit. Be careful that you understand it as a grace that can be taken at any time. Dark nights are very trying for the spirit. One cannot hope to approach the first one exactly as our brother John of the Cross illustrates because his understanding comes after great trials and many times of perfections. his work can help prepare a soul, but it will not make the night any easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Semperviva Posted June 26, 2005 Author Share Posted June 26, 2005 [quote name='jezic' date='Jun 25 2005, 11:31 PM']The path is easier to fall from in the pursuit of this type of life [right][snapback]623902[/snapback][/right] [/quote] How? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corban711 Posted June 26, 2005 Share Posted June 26, 2005 i almost never do this...but i must let out a big complaint that i have. so many times when someone is suffering i hear people say, "well you are going through the dark night of the soul." oh my! certainly their trials are a "dark night" of sorts, one that can even make them holy, but those in the dark night as John/Teresa talk of it, are basically at the heights of holiness. thank you for pointing that out (i forget who it was right now, but they said something to the effect that it is for those who are very conformed to God's will)! Fr. Thomas Dubay says that many people reach the first night, the night of the sense, but not that many pass through it. often because of the lack of spiritual direction to be guided through it. i am so happy it is being talked about here! i love talking about the spiritual life! also, the Congregation my brother belongs to, the Community of St. John studies a lot of mystical theology. it is a very important, although mostly forgotten, branch of theology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Semperviva Posted June 26, 2005 Author Share Posted June 26, 2005 does your brother know Mr. Brown's brother? lol...from the same community.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corban711 Posted June 26, 2005 Share Posted June 26, 2005 [quote name='Semperviva' date='Jun 26 2005, 03:59 PM']does your brother know Mr. Brown's brother? lol...from the same community.. [right][snapback]624604[/snapback][/right] [/quote] mr. brown's brother??? i don't know who that is! what is his name in the Community? is he from the states? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morostheos Posted June 26, 2005 Share Posted June 26, 2005 oooohhh....I love this stuff!!! I think so often we get lost in the legalistic battles of what's right and what's wrong in the practices within the Church (and outside of the Chruch as well), but really spirituality is so essential in the Faith and so often de-emphasized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philothea Posted June 26, 2005 Share Posted June 26, 2005 [quote name='corban711' date='Jun 26 2005, 03:51 PM']i almost never do this...but i must let out a big complaint that i have. so many times when someone is suffering i hear people say, "well you are going through the dark night of the soul." oh my! certainly their trials are a "dark night" of sorts, one that can even make them holy, but those in the dark night as John/Teresa talk of it, are basically at the heights of holiness. thank you for pointing that out (i forget who it was right now, but they said something to the effect that it is for those who are very conformed to God's will)! Fr. Thomas Dubay says that many people reach the first night, the night of the sense, but not that many pass through it. often because of the lack of spiritual direction to be guided through it. i am so happy it is being talked about here! i love talking about the spiritual life! [right][snapback]624600[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I :heart: Fr. Dubay. I get a bit annoyed about the casual flinging around of "Dark Night" to describe all kinds of problems too. It's [i]not[/i] being depressed, or having a lot of bad things happen, or even having lots of trouble praying, or even all of them at the same time. It's a very particualr purification, and once the person knows what is going on, it's not even that difficult or unpleasant (at least the first one isn't). It's just [i]dark[/i]. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jezic Posted June 27, 2005 Share Posted June 27, 2005 the path is easier to fall from. It is sort of hard to explain how it happens. Think of it like this. The way of contemplation is like a road. It ascends closer and closer to Heaven. Slowly winding its way back and forth across the landscape. As it moves higher, the sides get steeper. One wrong step sends you flying all the way down to the ground. Then it must be began again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philothea Posted June 27, 2005 Share Posted June 27, 2005 Regarding falling from more advanced mystical prayer states... St. Teresa of Avila's [i]Interior Castle[/i], Fourth Mansion (beginning of infused contemplation: prayer of recollection, prayer of quiet) [quote]Into these mansions poisonous creatures seldom enter, and, if they do, the prove quite harmless--infact they do the soul good. I think in this state of prayer it is much better for them to enter and make war upon the soul, for, if it had no temptations, the devil might misleading with regard to the consolations which God gives, and do much more harm than he can when it is being tempted.[/quote] Fifth Mansion (prayer of union) [quote]I tell you, daughters, I have known people of a very high degree of spirituality who have reached this state, and whom, notwithstanding, the devil, with great subtlety and craft, has won back to himself. For this purpose he will marshal all the powers of hell, for, as I have often said, if he wins a single soul in this way he will win a whole multitude.[/quote] In the Sixth Mansion are all the extraordinary favors: visions, locutions, raptures, transports, etc. (It's a very long chapter and hard to pick out a good representative quote from.) As long as what is happening is authentic, the recipient seems to be in no danger of falling. False mysticism is dangerous, though. The Seventh Mansion is the Spiritual Betrothal, and it would not be possible to commit serious sins after that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birgitta Noel Posted June 27, 2005 Share Posted June 27, 2005 [quote name='corban711' date='Jun 26 2005, 04:07 PM']mr. brown's brother??? i don't know who that is! what is his name in the Community? is he from the states? [right][snapback]624608[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I believe he is refering to Fr. Joseph Mary Brown, who is currently in Montmorin, France, living as a hermit....prior to that he was the Prior of the Novitiate in Princeville, IL (no pun intended!). Am I right? I know him He prepared my husband and I for marriage. Studying mystical theology with the community has had a great influence on my spiritual development! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 27, 2005 Share Posted June 27, 2005 Anyone interested in mystical theology should read the [u]Philokalia[/u]. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corban711 Posted June 27, 2005 Share Posted June 27, 2005 [quote name='Birgitta Noel' date='Jun 27 2005, 12:00 AM']I believe he is refering to Fr. Joseph Mary Brown, who is currently in Montmorin, France, living as a hermit....prior to that he was the Prior of the Novitiate in Princeville, IL (no pun intended!). Am I right? I know him He prepared my husband and I for marriage. Studying mystical theology with the community has had a great influence on my spiritual development! [right][snapback]624952[/snapback][/right] [/quote] oh! hehe. i didn't know his last name! i just know "fr. joseph mary"...that most certainly must be him then! yes, both my brother and I know fr. joseph mary. fr. joseph mary is so blessed to be able to be on desert for quite some time...i can't imagine all the graces he must be getting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philothea Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jun 27 2005, 12:13 AM']Anyone interested in mystical theology should read the [u]Philokalia[/u]. [right][snapback]624976[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Well, well. I will have to get myself a copy of that! Thanks for the suggestion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Semperviva Posted June 29, 2005 Author Share Posted June 29, 2005 (edited) [quote name='Birgitta Noel' date='Jun 27 2005, 12:00 AM']I believe he is refering to Fr. Joseph Mary Brown, who is currently in Montmorin, France, living as a hermit....prior to that he was the Prior of the Novitiate in Princeville, IL (no pun intended!). Am I right? I know him He prepared my husband and I for marriage. Studying mystical theology with the community has had a great influence on my spiritual development! [right][snapback]624952[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Lol, yip- he's the one I meant...but i'm a she, lol Edited June 29, 2005 by Semperviva Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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