Kneeling

[morostheos]

Okay guys...I have a question for ya...

First, some background....
The parishioners at my local parish had a longstanding tradition of about half the people kneeling and half standing at the consecration. It was a hotly debated topic for many many years. Eventually, we got a new pastor, and he decided to end the arguement. He said that all who go to the 4:45 on Sat, and the 9am would kneel, those at the 11am would stand, and those at Life Teen could do whichever posture they preferred. My whole family goes to the 11 am Mass. My dad is in the choir, and it's the Mass we've always gone to. The rest of my family usually stands, and has no problem with it.

So here's the question:
Since the pastor has explicitly said that everyone at the 11 am should stand during the consecration, do I kneel anyway and directly disobey him? What do y'all think?

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

of course

how dare they show irevrence to Jesus Christ in the blessed Sacrement.

a law that is immoral is no law at all.

[Guest Eremite]

[quote]"Each one should also remember that he is responsible for the common good of the whole Church. The *priest as minister*, as celebrant, as the one who presides over the eucharistic assembly of the faithful, should have a special *sense of the common good of the Church*, which he represents through his ministry, but to which he must also be subordinate, according to a correct discipline of faith. He cannot consider himself a 'proprietor' who can make free use of the liturgical text and of the sacred rite as if it were his own property, in such a way as to stamp it with his own arbitrary personal style. At times this latter might seem more effective, and it may better correspond to subjective piety; nevertheless, objectively it is always a betrayal of that union which should find its proper expression in the sacrament of unity."

--John Paul II, "Dominicae Canae"[/quote]

The General Instruction of the Roman Missal for the United States, #43, reads:

[quote]In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer
[/quote]

Nobody has a right to change this, not even a priest.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

yeah tell your priest that you are going to have a word with the bishop and be stern with him this is a very serious issue.

Edited June 26, 2005 by Extra ecclesiam nulla salus

[Guest Eremite]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Jun 26 2005, 05:15 PM']yeah tell your priest that you are going to have a word with the bishop and be stern  with him this is a very serious issue.
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No, don't be stern. . You have to be very gentle and charitable. Otherwise, he might just ignore you altogether. If you must, go to the Bishop. But try to settle it gently with your priest first.

[Cam42]

[quote name='morostheos' date='Jun 26 2005, 06:04 PM']Okay guys...I have a question for ya...

First, some background....
The parishioners at my local parish had a longstanding tradition of about half the people kneeling and half standing at the consecration.  It was a hotly debated topic for many many years.  Eventually, we got a new pastor, and he decided to end the arguement.  He said that all who go to the 4:45 on Sat, and the 9am would kneel, those at the 11am would stand, and those at Life Teen could do whichever posture they preferred.   My whole family goes to the 11 am Mass.  My dad is in the choir, and it's the Mass we've always gone to.  The rest of my family usually stands, and has no problem with it. 

So here's the question:
Since the pastor has explicitly said that everyone at the 11 am should stand during the consecration, do I kneel anyway and directly disobey him?  What do y'all think?
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[/quote]

Your pastor is being disobedient. Following the General Instruction of the Roman Missal ([url="http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/current/revmissalisromanien.shtml"]GIRM[/url]), we are to kneel.

[quote name='GIRM #43']The faithful should stand from the beginning of the Entrance chant, or while the priest approaches the altar, until the end of the Collect; for the Alleluia chant before the Gospel; while the Gospel itself is proclaimed; during the Profession of Faith and the Prayer of the Faithful; from the invitation, Orate, fraters (Pray, brethren), before the prayer over the offerings until the end of Mass, except at the places indicated below.

They should, however, sit while the readings before the Gospel and the responsorial Psalm are proclaimed and for the homily and while the Preparation of the Gifts at the Offertory is taking place; and, as circumstances allow, they may sit or kneel while the period of sacred silence after Communion is observed.

In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.

With a view to a uniformity in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives according to whatever is indicated in the Missal.[/quote]

Also, you have the right to take this to your pastor based upon [url="http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/documents/instructioneng.shtml"]Redemptionis Sacramentum[/url].

[quote name='Redemptionis Sacramentum #184']Any Catholic, whether Priest or Deacon or lay member of Christ’s faithful, has the right to lodge a complaint regarding a liturgical abuse to the diocesan Bishop or the competent Ordinary equivalent to him in law, or to the Apostolic See on account of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff.290 It is fitting, however, insofar as possible, that the report or complaint be submitted first to the diocesan Bishop. This is naturally to be done in truth and charity.[/quote]

Not kneeling for the Canon is an abuse. Approach your pastor first, if he will not respond and react, then the bishop. If he doesn't, then you have recourse to Rome. I don't think that it would go that far though, although it is your right.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

he should know better

he is not ignorant

he needs to be punished

[Guest Eremite]

You are not the priest's superior. It is not your job to carry out judgement on him. You must petition him as a father, and if he doesn't listen, you go to your grandfather (Bishop).

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

i do not claim to be above this priest. He is obviously not doing his job correctly and it makes me angry

[Guest Eremite]

I understand, believe me. But berating the priest will not get anything accomplished.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

thats true...

i have a question for the more knowledgebale people hear

THe pastor at my church calls his army of "eucharistic ministers" up and they all recieve the eucharist first and together with their backs to the tabernacle, is this allowed?

[morostheos]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Jun 26 2005, 07:19 PM']he should know better

he is not ignorant

he needs to be punished
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Actually, I think he is ignorant. He is a very good-hearted priest, and wants to do what he thinks is right. I do not think he needs to be punished, but charitably informed.

Thanks for all of your replies everyone. I have been gone from my home parish for a year and I am just coming back, so it will be interesting. Also, we have just gotten a new pastor (I met him for the first time this week), so I'm not sure if he might change it anyway. I will make a point to speak with him about it charitably.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

did he not go to seminary?

[morostheos]

Well, he did but it was probably one of those post-vatican II seminaries that encouraged psychoanalysis rather than spiritual direction and encouraged seminarians to date....I don't know how much Truth those poor priests learned in seminary.

In order for them not to be ignorant, they must have solid formation - which I'm afraid many priests were never given.

[Brother Adam]

EENS,

You of all people should understand the difference between the laity and the ordained. It is not your place to decide or even speculate that he should be punished. Frankly you don't even know the circumstances surrounding the pastors choice and that is arrogance.

Edited June 26, 2005 by Brother Adam

[Cam42]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Jun 26 2005, 06:25 PM']thats true...

i have a question for the more knowledgebale people hear

THe pastor at my church calls his army of "eucharistic ministers" up and they all recieve the eucharist first and together with their backs to the tabernacle, is this allowed?
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Facing the tabernacle has no bearing......as far as receiving Holy Communion, does Father receive first then the faithful?

Next, there is to be a need for Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion. They are not to be excessive.

Redemptionis Sacramentum #151 speaks to that.

[quote]Only out of true necessity is there to be recourse to the assistance of extraordinary ministers in the celebration of the Liturgy. Such recourse is not intended for the sake of a fuller participation of the laity but rather, by its very nature, is supplementary and provisional.[/quote]

Also look to Redemptionis Sacramentum #154-160.

[Cam42]

[quote name='morostheos' date='Jun 26 2005, 06:36 PM']Actually, I think he is ignorant.  He is a very good-hearted priest, and wants to do what he thinks is right.  I do not think he needs to be punished, but charitably informed. 

Thanks for all of your replies everyone.  I have been gone from my home parish for a year and I am just coming back, so it will be interesting.  Also, we have just gotten a new pastor (I met him for the first time this week), so I'm not sure if he might change it anyway.  I will make a point to speak with him about it charitably.
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Understandable, but ignorance doesn't impute guilt. While it is to be done in charity and with prudence, he needs to correct this abuse.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

sorry im just venting...

i acknowledge that this priest is above me and i have no right to demand punishment... sorry

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Jun 26 2005, 04:32 PM']sorry im just venting...

i acknowledge that this priest is above me and i have no right to demand  punishment... sorry
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There is no need to be sorry.

You do have the right to report him to the proper ecclesiastical authorities, because a parish priest does not have the power to tell people that they are not to kneel during the Eucharistic Prayer, or that they cannot kneel when receiving communion, etc.

So if your priest is being disobedient to the Church by altering things in the liturgy, which he has no authority to do in the first place, you should talk to him, and then if he persists in his disobedience, take it to the bishop. If the bishop doesn't fulfill his duty as the moderator of the liturgy in his diocese, you can then report it to the proper authorities in Rome.

[PedroX]

I must admit that I am a bit shocked by the tone of some of these posts. First there are calls for "punishment" to be given to a priest. (What exactly would that "punishment" look like? Public flogging? Docking his pay? ) Then a blanket generalization of "post Vatican II seminaries" as caring more about "psychoanalysis than spiritual direction." Good grief. With parishioners like this its a wonder you have priests. Perhaps as a seminarian I'm a bit sensitive, but it is astounding to me that ya'll are ready to stone him or at best dismiss him as feeble minded. Thanks for encouraging vocations today.

peace...