homosexual attraction

[scardella]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Jul 6 2005, 11:36 AM']RESPONSE:

Only to those who hold such a view. I don't think you'll find physicians, psychiatrists, or psychologists making that claim in this day and age.[/quote]

Incorrect.

[quote]That's that nature of the human species. There is no disorder involved.
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Actually, the nature of the human species is fallen, so disorder is involved

[Semperviva]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Jul 5 2005, 08:13 PM']what exactly is focus on the family?
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focus ont he family is a pretty dynamic prot. organization, they publish books, give marriage conferences-that sorta thing........i mentioned them because they are very much on the forefront of helping homosexuals...they have alot of that kindof ministry...

[LittleLes]

[quote name='scardella' date='Jul 6 2005, 12:39 PM']Incorrect.
Actually, the nature of the human species is fallen, so disorder is involved
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RESPONSE:

No. Your "fallen nature" is presupposing a "fall." That may be so in your belief system if based on a literal interpretation of Genesis.

The various human sexual orientations are natural, much like left handedness or right handness. Do you want to claim that left handness resulted from fallen human nature, too?

As Travis Tamerius wrote in Grace Notes (Aug 96):

" I am a Christian. But there is something else you must know about me. I am a left-handed Christian. Being a left-handed Christian makes me a minority easily marginalized within this community of believers by right-handers wanting to assert their dominance. It accounts for my feelings of spiritual inadequacy, my difficulties in relating to a right-handed god, and my lack of discipline in reading the Bible. If you don't understand what I am talking about, realize that you can't understand - it's a left-hander's thing. "

He could have been writing about sexual orientation instead.

[scardella]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Jul 6 2005, 01:10 PM']RESPONSE:

No. Your "fallen nature" is presupposing a "fall."  That may be  so in your belief system if based on a literal interpretation of Genesis.

The various human sexual orientations are natural, much like left handedness or right handness. Do you want to claim that left handness resulted from fallen human nature, too?

As Travis Tamerius wrote in Grace Notes (Aug 96):

" I am a Christian. But there is something else you must know about me. I am a left-handed Christian. Being a left-handed Christian makes me a minority easily marginalized within this community of believers by right-handers wanting to assert their dominance. It accounts for my feelings of spiritual inadequacy, my difficulties in relating to a right-handed god, and my lack of discipline in reading the Bible. If you don't understand what I am talking about, realize that you can't understand - it's a left-hander's thing. "

He could have been writing about sexual orientation instead.
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Yeah, I'm presupposing a fall, but that doesn't require a literal interpretation of Genesis. To disregard the fall is to be blind to the world's evils. "Various" sexual orientations are not natural, sorry.

Hey, I'm left handed myself, so I suppose I can answer that from experience. Last I checked, there's nothing in the bible or Church teaching that say being left-handed is bad. However, it is tougher to be left-handed. My job requires me to work on other people's computers, so I've had to train myself to be able to use right handed setups. In other areas, i've had challenges with having baseball gloves, golf clubs, writing, etc. It [b]is[/b] tougher to be left-handed, as it is to have a SSA. That doesn't mean any of us have any right to go against God's law. It's the same for people w/ genetic disorders or lacking limbs or have predispositions to be alcoholic, violent, etc. It doesn't exempt them from God's law.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Jul 6 2005, 12:36 PM']RESPONSE:

Only to those who hold such a view. I don't think you'll find physicians, psychiatrists, or psychologists making that claim in this day and age.

Sexual orientation develops along a spectrum. A certain number of men and women become sexually oriented to their own gender. This happens in the animal kingdom as well.

At one point it was thought that being left handed rather than right handed was a disorder. Same thing though.

That's that nature of the human species. There is no disorder involved.
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actually, even the man who was influential in taking homosexuality off of the list of psychological disorders for the APA has recently come to the conclusion that reparative therapy is good when done correctly, and changed his mind about the nature of homosexuality. there is a growing movement of those who actually study the idea objectively that says it is a disorder; those who conform to the prejudice and PC of the times refuse to consider the possibility.

[LittleLes]

[quote name='scardella' date='Jul 6 2005, 03:27 PM']Yeah, I'm presupposing a fall, but that doesn't require a literal interpretation of Genesis.  To disregard the fall is to be blind to the world's evils.  "Various" sexual orientations are not natural, sorry. 

Hey, I'm left handed myself, so I suppose I can answer that from experience.  Last I checked, there's nothing in the bible or Church teaching that say being left-handed is bad.    However, it is tougher to be left-handed.  My job requires me to work on other people's computers, so I've had to train myself to be able to use right handed setups.  In other areas, i've had challenges with having baseball gloves, golf clubs, writing, etc.  It [b]is[/b] tougher to be left-handed, as it is to have a SSA.  That doesn't mean any of us have any right to go against God's law.  It's the same for people w/ genetic disorders or lacking limbs or have predispositions to be alcoholic, violent, etc.  It doesn't exempt them from God's law.
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RESPONSE:

(1) That which occurs in nature is natural by definition.

(2) "It is due to this that the natural left-handers in society have sometimes been treated differently, as outcasts or evil people. In previous times, probably due to Satan being a left-hander, they were said to have been 'doing the devil's work'. It is therefore not surprising that so many left-handed people have been forced to write and eat with their right hand. Changing a person's handedness forces them to use a different brain hemisphere, and often causes stuttering or other learning difficulties."

Sorry about your being left-handed. We'll all pray for you, and hope that you overcome this UNNATURAL affliction!

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Jul 6 2005, 03:39 PM']actually, even the man who was influential in taking homosexuality off of the list of psychological disorders for the APA has recently come to the conclusion that reparative therapy is good when done correctly, and changed his mind about the nature of homosexuality.  there is a growing movement of those who actually study the idea objectively that says it is a disorder; those who conform to the prejudice and PC of the times refuse to consider the possibility.
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RESPONSE:

Please provide evidence for your assertion.

[Aloysius]

I was referring to Dr. Robert Spitzer, the doctor who originally convinced the APA to change its stance on homosexuality in 1973.

He came out in 2003 after interviewing over 200 people who had been treated by psychologists. He originally had the APA change becuase he was convinced that it was not mentally unhealthy and thus shouldn't be treated, and that it cannot be treated. That was due to studies reported to him at the time. Then he underwent his own intensive study recently, saying he went into it "initially skeptical" but found that reparative therapy does work well. Here are some quotes from his study:

[quote]"For the participants in our study, there was no evidence of harm"

"Mental health professionals should stop moving in the direction of banning therapy that has as its goal a change in sexual orientation"

"Many patients can make a rational choice toward developing their heterosexual potential and minimizing their homosexual attractions." [/quote]

I have met a few psychologists in person who have done extensive study, especially analyzing the methodology used in those "studies" that supposedly prove homosexuality to be genetic or whatever, there is a lot of faulty techniques used and they are unable to be replicated with the same results (for example, the one where they disected the brains of a homosexual and a strait person and declared that there were differences; it's been attempted but never with the same results so it's erroneous)

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Jul 5 2005, 03:19 AM']Furthermore, I believe that it does not necessarily call people to a life of celebacy.[right][snapback]631970[/snapback][/right]
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If you have SSA, you have to assume the single life unless some "healing" comes to fix it. If you are gay, you are not going to get married unless healed. You will definatly not become a priest unless you fully overcome it (and i mean fully and completely, which only a miracle can cause.) There are no other choices besides the single life (in service to the church as a lay person, of course).

You have a problem with celebacy, but there are no other choices.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='Jul 6 2005, 08:02 PM']If you have SSA, you have to assume the single life unless some "healing" comes to fix it. If you are gay, you are not going to get married unless healed. You will definatly not become a priest unless you fully overcome it (and i mean fully and completely, which only a miracle can cause.) There are no other choices besides the single life (in service to the church as a lay person, of course).

You have a problem with celebacy, but there are no other choices.
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fidei,

dont u think that given what causes homosexuality and given the free-will that we do have a choice? Like others have said........you cant just choose to not feel that way........you have to make the choices to get there. Also, jesus says in the bible that through god there are infinite possibliities. Also, dont u think that through free will we have the choice to feel a certain way? (remember you cant just change over night unless of course a miracle happened).

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Jul 6 2005, 08:15 PM']fidei,

dont u think that given what causes homosexuality and given the free-will that we do have a choice? Like others have said........you cant just choose to not feel that way........you have to make the choices to get there. Also, jesus says in the bible that through god there are infinite possibliities. Also, dont u think that through free will we have the choice to feel a certain way? (remember you cant just change over night unless of course a miracle happened).
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maybe you can be healed completely.........but the devil may always hold his ground with an issue like this too........maybe the person may still feel an SSA yet be able to have a strong loving heterosexual relationship.

[Socrates]

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='Jul 6 2005, 08:02 PM']If you have SSA, you have to assume the single life unless some "healing" comes to fix it. If you are gay, you are not going to get married unless healed. You will definatly not become a priest unless you fully overcome it (and i mean fully and completely, which only a miracle can cause.) There are no other choices besides the single life (in service to the church as a lay person, of course).

You have a problem with celebacy, but there are no other choices.
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I think there's a misunderstanding here. Infinitelord's talking about a "hetero" relationship, not homosexual.,

[Aloysius]

NARTH's statistics show that some people that turn away from homosexuality can be rid of the ssa and actually develope normal heterosexual attraction, while some can be rid of the ssa but not develope heterosexual attraction, and some never get rid of the ssa at all. it's about 33% for each of those three categories.

certain factors determine what category you'd fit under, such as how deep you're into the homosexual lifestyle and how deep your wounds are et cetera.

anyway, don't go head-to-head against homosexuality, fighting against homosexuality; you have to work on all the issues surrounding it and that will help you a lot more.

[scardella]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Jul 6 2005, 04:13 PM']RESPONSE:

(1) That which occurs in nature is natural by definition.

(2) "It is due to this that the natural left-handers in society have sometimes been treated differently, as outcasts or evil people. In previous times, probably due to Satan being a left-hander, they were said to have been 'doing the devil's work'. It is therefore not surprising that so many left-handed people have been forced to write and eat with their right hand. Changing a person's handedness forces them to use a different brain hemisphere, and often causes stuttering or other learning difficulties."

Sorry about your being left-handed. We'll all pray for you, and hope that you overcome this  UNNATURAL affliction!
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1. By that definition, all things that occur in the material world are natural, even things that contradict natural laws. Sounds fishy.

2. Satan doesn't have a body. Therefore, he cannot be left or right-handed.

3. Thanks for praying for me! I can use all the help I can get.

Edited July 7, 2005 by scardella

[LittleLes]

[quote name='scardella' date='Jul 7 2005, 09:14 AM']1. By that definition, all things that occur in the material world are natural, even things that contradict natural laws.  Sounds fishy.

2. Satan doesn't have a body.  Therefore, he cannot be left or right-handed.

3. Thanks for praying for me!  I can use all the help I can get.
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RESPONSE:

1. No. Your argument is in error. Not everything that occurs in the material world can be taken to be natural. But that which occurs by nature - ie differing sexual orientations among mammals -would be natural.

2. Ol' Nick can assume whatever form he wants! I just wish he hadn't given snakes a bad name in Genesis.

3. Maybe you can find a therapist who can convert you to right handedness. Aloysius may know one.

[LittleLes]

As I previously noted, human sexual orientation occurs along a spectrum from strongly heterosexual to strongly homosexual.

I have no doubt that some homosexuals who are toward the center of the spectrum can be "converted" to heterosexuality; as also some who are heterosexual can be converted to homosexuality.

Of course, how lasting this conversion will be is unknown.

Also unknown is if any bisexual orientation develops among the "converted."

Perhaps, if the individual is satisfied with his sexual orientation, we just ought to leave well enough alone.

LittleLes

[scardella]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Jul 7 2005, 10:12 AM']RESPONSE:

1.  No. Your argument is in error. Not everything that occurs in the material world can be taken to be natural. But that which occurs by nature - ie differing sexual orientations among mammals -would be natural.

2.  Ol' Nick can assume whatever form he wants! I just wish he hadn't given snakes a bad name in Genesis.

3.  Maybe you can find a therapist who can convert you to right handedness. Aloysius may know one.
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Btw, part of the stigma against lefties comes from when people didn't have toilet paper or soap and had to wipe consistently with one hand and eat with the other so that they didn't get disease from fecal matter. Therefore, it was also bad to use that hand in social situations too.

Ooh, we're way off topic!

Edited July 7, 2005 by scardella

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Jul 6 2005, 08:15 PM']fidei,

dont u think that given what causes homosexuality and given the free-will that we do have a choice? Like others have said........you cant just choose to not feel that way........you have to make the choices to get there. Also, jesus says in the bible that through god there are infinite possibliities. Also, dont u think that through free will we have the choice to feel a certain way? (remember you cant just change over night unless of course a miracle happened).
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I think you are trying to mix free will into places it does not belong.

You cannot say the because you did not choose SSA, that God does not exist. Outside forces - i.e. nature - affects us as well. You are assuming that every single factor of our lives we can choose, and we cannot. God is God, and he can do as he feels. Everything he does, it is perfect, the most perfect choice out of all, because there are no other choices with God, everything he does is the only thing he could do. eh yah confusing.. ignore that. In english, that means if God "made you gay", then that is how it is, unless in his plan, he had set to "heal" you. He may not have directly caused you to be that way, but that is not to say that he didnt will it. He doesnt will you to sin, but he may will you to have a certain feeling. And feelings do not, for the most part, have anything to do with free will, per se. You could do things to cause feelings, but the feelings themselves are not because you willed them. You can not just willfully cause yourself to be happy by telling youself "be happy". So SSA does not necesarily have anything to do with free will.

hmm yah. feel free to pick at what i just said.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='Jul 7 2005, 10:51 AM']I think you are trying to mix free will into places it does not belong.

You cannot say the because you did not choose SSA, that God does not exist. Outside forces - i.e. nature - affects us as well. You are assuming that every single factor of our lives we can choose, and we cannot. God is God, and he can do as he feels. Everything he does, it is perfect, the most perfect choice out of all, because there are no other choices with God, everything he does is the only thing he could do. eh yah confusing.. ignore that. In english, that means if God "made you gay", then that is how it is, unless in his plan, he had set to "heal" you. He may not have directly caused you to be that way, but that is not to say that he didnt will it. He doesnt will you to sin, but he may will you to have a certain feeling. And feelings do not, for the most part, have anything to do with free will, per se. You could do things to cause feelings, but the feelings themselves are not because you willed them. You can not just willfully cause yourself to be happy by telling youself "be happy". So SSA does not necesarily have anything to do with free will.

hmm yah. feel free to pick at what i just said.
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Modern day psychology teaches that feelings come from thoughts......whether we realize it or not. Do we have the free will to choose what we think? That is the question. Psychology also teaches that we can change the way we think........which would also change the way we feel........maybe hot stuff could back me up on this one.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Jul 7 2005, 06:53 PM']Modern day psychology teaches that feelings come from thoughts......whether we realize it or not. Do we have the free will to choose what we think? That is the question. Psychology also teaches that we can change the way we think........which would also change the way we feel........maybe hot stuff could back me up on this one.
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Yes, thoughs cause feelings, but what thought causes homosexuality or hetrosexuality? Tell me that one. You said yourself that you dont want to be homosexual, so why dont you just think yourself out of it? You cant.