Melchisedec Posted July 7, 2005 Share Posted July 7, 2005 My question is this and it might have been asked before. Basicly, if Jesus is God, than how can Jesus die and ressurect? How can a God die? He was made of human flesh, but he was still God wasn't he? He performed miracles and did things no mortal could do. He became the lamb of God and died for our own salvation. Was dead for 3 days and was ressurected. But if he was God , how could he die, was he ever really dead? Was he spirit , just waiting 3 days to reclaim his body? All answers apprecaited, because I can't seem to find much appologetics on this. Mel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Eremite Posted July 7, 2005 Share Posted July 7, 2005 You must first define death. Death is the separation of a human body from a human soul. Christ's human soul was truly separated from his human body, and thus Christ truly died. His divine soul (or nature), however, always remained united to both his human body and his human soul, even while his human soul was separated from his human body. Thus, the death of Christ does not negate his divinity nor his hypostatic union. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melchisedec Posted July 7, 2005 Author Share Posted July 7, 2005 [quote name='Eremite' date='Jul 7 2005, 11:11 AM']You must first define death. Death is the separation of a human body from a human soul. Christ's human soul was truly separated from his human body, and thus Christ truly died. His divine soul (or nature), however, always remained united to both his human body and his human soul, even while his human soul was separated from his human body. Thus, the death of Christ does not negate his divinity nor his hypostatic union. [right][snapback]634380[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Forgive me, I am not understanding. His soul departed and he died. Yet he was still conncected to his human soul and human body by way of divine soul? What is a divine soul? Also, I really don't see where the seperation occured? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted July 7, 2005 Share Posted July 7, 2005 [quote name='Melchisedec' date='Jul 7 2005, 09:16 AM']Forgive me, I am not understanding. His soul departed and he died. Yet he was still conncected to his human soul and human body by way of divine soul? What is a divine soul? Also, I really don't see where the seperation occured? [right][snapback]634389[/snapback][/right] [/quote] The Church teaches that after the incarnation, Christ is one divine person ([i]hypostasis[/i]) in two natures, divine and human. In answer to your questions: (1) When Christ died upon the cross, the person of the eternal Logos remained united to His human body and soul while they were separated in death. It is only in His humanity that the incarnate Logos could die, because the divine nature by definition cannot die. (2) I don't use the term "divine soul." As I indicated above, Christ is one divine person in two natures, divine and human. (3) The separation occurs only in the human nature, and it involves the separation of the soul and the body (i.e., human death), but the divine person ([i]hypostasis[/i]) of the Logos remains united to both body and soul during the three days that they are separated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted July 7, 2005 Share Posted July 7, 2005 [quote name='Eremite' date='Jul 7 2005, 11:11 AM']You must first define death. Death is the separation of a human body from a human soul. Christ's human soul was truly separated from his human body, and thus Christ truly died. His divine soul (or nature), however, always remained united to both his human body and his human soul, even while his human soul was separated from his human body. Thus, the death of Christ does not negate his divinity nor his hypostatic union. [right][snapback]634380[/snapback][/right] [/quote] i think the soul comes out of the ear........u see the soul is located ur brain and comes out of the ear. Then it goes around and takes one last look at the world and waves good bye to everyone before it starts its departure for outer space. The cool thing is......its gets to see all the planets in our solar system and even other planets in other galaxy's. Man im just joking......i dont know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted July 7, 2005 Share Posted July 7, 2005 [quote name='Melchisedec' date='Jul 7 2005, 11:16 AM']Forgive me, I am not understanding. His soul departed and he died. Yet he was still conncected to his human soul and human body by way of divine soul? What is a divine soul? Also, I really don't see where the seperation occured? [right][snapback]634389[/snapback][/right] [/quote] i think maybe he had a divine human body (since he was born of a virgin) and a divine soul. I dont think he had 2 souls and 2 bodys if that is what u are referring to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted July 7, 2005 Share Posted July 7, 2005 [quote name='infinitelord1' date='Jul 7 2005, 01:46 PM']i think maybe he had a divine human body (since he was born of a virgin) and a divine soul. I dont think he had 2 souls and 2 bodys if that is what u are referring to. [right][snapback]634588[/snapback][/right] [/quote] He had one body and soul, but two natures (Divine and Human). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted July 7, 2005 Share Posted July 7, 2005 [quote name='Socrates' date='Jul 7 2005, 01:52 PM']He had one body and soul, but two natures (Divine and Human). [right][snapback]634602[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I dont see what u mean by jesus having 2 natures.......if his body was of human nature then he would have had erections and stuff.......man i dont want to think of jesus as having that stuff at all. If he didnt have these urges then i dont think it was of human nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted July 7, 2005 Share Posted July 7, 2005 [quote name='infinitelord1' date='Jul 7 2005, 01:55 PM']I dont see what u mean by jesus having 2 natures.......if his body was of human nature then he would have had erections and stuff.......man i dont want to think of jesus as having that stuff at all. If he didnt have these urges then i dont think it was of human nature. [right][snapback]634604[/snapback][/right] [/quote] He was fully human because he was born of Mary, but he was also fully God because of being concieved by the Holy Spirit. These two natures, Human and God, were joined together fully in him. So technically, he could have these happenings, but he was also God.. so he wouldnt indulge in these things or temptations, because he had command over the demons and devils and their lies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted July 7, 2005 Share Posted July 7, 2005 [quote name='infinitelord1' date='Jul 7 2005, 11:46 AM']i think maybe he had a divine human body (since he was born of a virgin) and a divine soul. I dont think he had 2 souls and 2 bodys if that is what u are referring to. [right][snapback]634588[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I would avoid the use of the term "divine soul" because it isn't traditional in Catholic theology. It is best to stick with the terminology used in the Formula of Union (433 A.D.) between John of Antioch and Cyril of Alexandria, and with the definition of the Council of Chalcedon (A.D. 451). [quote][b]The Definition of Chalcedon:[/b] Following the Holy Fathers, we unanimously teach and confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ: the same perfect in divinity and perfect in humanity, the same truly God and truly man, composed of rational soul and body; consubstantial with the Father as to His divinity and consubstantial with us as to His humanity; "like us in all things but sin". He was begotten from the Father before all ages as to His divinity and in these last days, for us and for our salvation, was born as to His humanity of the virgin Mary, the Mother of God. We confess that one and the same Christ, Lord, and only-begotten Son, is to be acknowledged in two natures without confusion, change, division or separation. The distinction between the natures was never abolished by their union, but rather the character proper to each of the two natures was preserved as they came together in one person (prosopon) and one hypostasis. [Taken from the [u]Catechism of the Catholic Church[/u], no. 467][/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melchisedec Posted July 7, 2005 Author Share Posted July 7, 2005 [quote name='infinitelord1' date='Jul 7 2005, 01:55 PM']I dont see what u mean by jesus having 2 natures.......if his body was of human nature then he would have had erections and stuff.......man i dont want to think of jesus as having that stuff at all. If he didnt have these urges then i dont think it was of human nature. [right][snapback]634604[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Excellent observation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melchisedec Posted July 7, 2005 Author Share Posted July 7, 2005 [quote name='fidei defensor' date='Jul 7 2005, 02:11 PM']He was fully human because he was born of Mary, but he was also fully God because of being concieved by the Holy Spirit. These two natures, Human and God, were joined together fully in him. So technically, he could have these happenings, but he was also God.. so he wouldnt indulge in these things or temptations, because he had command over the demons and devils and their lies. [right][snapback]634626[/snapback][/right] [/quote] My conflict is that, if he was human and he died, and was ressurected than I can definitely appreciate the power in that act. But if he was a God, how can he die at all. In fact, all that was stripped was his flesh. In short, he never overcame death. He was never susceptible to death in the first place. Ressurection cannot be possible because he cannot relive. He never died. And if he did die, how could he - hes God. It would imply that God was not present throughout those 3 days. You see me chasing my tail here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted July 7, 2005 Share Posted July 7, 2005 [quote name='Melchisedec' date='Jul 7 2005, 12:25 PM']My conflict is that, if he was human and he died, and was ressurected than I can definitely appreciate the power in that act. But if he was a God, how can he die at all. In fact, all that was stripped was his flesh. In short, he never overcame death. He was never susceptible to death in the first place. Ressurection cannot be possible because he cannot relive. He never died. And if he did die, how could he - hes God. It would imply that God was not present throughout those 3 days. You see me chasing my tail here. [right][snapback]634646[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Christ is one divine person subsisting in two natures. Thus, He experiences things that are proper to each nature. He can die in His human nature, because humanity itself can suffer death, but He cannot suffer death in His divinity, because the divine nature is not subject to change or corruption. The death of Christ does not involve a separation of the person ([i]hypostasis[/i]) of the Logos from His assumed humanity at all, in fact the Logos remains united to both the body and the soul even while they are separated in death. Later in the resurrection His body and soul are reunited, and He conquers death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mateo el Feo Posted July 7, 2005 Share Posted July 7, 2005 [quote name='Melchisedec' date='Jul 7 2005, 03:25 PM']My conflict is that, if he was human and he died, and was ressurected than I can definitely appreciate the power in that act. But if he was a God, how can he die at all. In fact, all that was stripped was his flesh. In short, he never overcame death. He was never susceptible to death in the first place. Ressurection cannot be possible because he cannot relive. He never died. And if he did die, how could he - hes God. It would imply that God was not present throughout those 3 days. You see me chasing my tail here. [right][snapback]634646[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Using this line of thinking, none of us humans are "susceptible to death" because our souls live on even after our bodies "kick the bucket." It seems that you are equating death and non-existance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted July 7, 2005 Share Posted July 7, 2005 i think what would help me and mel out here is for u guys to prove to us what made jesus divine. Using facts please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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