Can God die? Did Jesus die?

[Socrates]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Jul 7 2005, 03:31 PM']i think what would help me and mel out here is for u guys to prove to us what made jesus divine. Using facts please.
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There's a whole thread about this here: [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=33775&st=0"]Divinity of Christ[/url]

[curtins]

whats logos?

this is interesting- I was watching "30 days" the other day and apparently it was like a non practicing Christian like living with muslims and trying to be muslim or something but he was talking to one of the muslim religious dudes and the muslim dude said "you say Christ died- he cannot die- God cannot die cause no one would be ruling the universe" and the "christian" dude didnt know how to answer

I was thinking- theres still God the father- he never dies nor does God the holy Spirit- but Christ doesnt like disapear for 3 days- he goes and takes the souls from hell into heaven. now correct me if Im wrong but is it like Christ in his soul that is in the 3 days from death to resurection right?

[Semalsia]

[quote name='Eremite']You must first define death.
Death is the separation of a human body from a human soul.
[/quote]

So basically catholics believe death is not the death? In the sense that it's not the end of existance. So can any creature die really? Can souls be killed? Can they commit suicide? When angels and demons wage war, do they die? What happens when they die (they go to Heaven?)?

Apparently God can die after you change the meaning of death.

[Jake Huether]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' date='Jul 7 2005, 01:56 PM']Using this line of thinking, none of us humans are  "susceptible to death" because our souls live on even after our bodies "kick the bucket."

It seems that you are equating death and non-existance.
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Ya beat me to it.

Indeed.

The Person of Christ Jesus died on the Cross. Just like the Person of Christ Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary.

We therefore can say that God was born, God lived, and God died. Because the Person of Christ Jesus is God. We do not say that the Nature died though, so God the Father and God the Holy Spirit did not die. It was God the Son who did, in the Person of Christ Jesus. More on that later.

Christ is a unique Person of the blessed Trinity, because He is both God and man. But He isn't a God and a man. He is both natures hypostatically. There is no seperating the two natures. There is no seperating the Divine from the human, niether in body nor in soul. When God became man in the Person of Jesus, the Son, the two natures were united in hypostacis such that they are One Person. So when Jesus is born, it isn't just His body that is born, it is His Person that is born. And Persons are Body and Soul! And since Jesus is God, Mary gave birth to God. In the same way, when Jesus died, God died, because death is the seperation of body and soul. But Jesus was fully God, and so while His seperated soul was Divine, so too was His Body... So while his Divine Body remained in the tomb for three days, the Divine Soul of the Eternal Son was out and about preaching it up to the souls of old, etc.

Think of it this way. When we die, our body is seperated from our souls. Our souls are human in nature. So are our bodies. You don't say that our humanity is seperated from our bodies with the soul. Both the body and the soul remain human, though seperated through death.

So too, the body of our Lord Jesus is Divine in Nature (God), and His soul is Divine in Nature (God). But when He died, while the Body and Soul were seperated, both remained Divine in Nature (and human in nature). It was a human experience which required a human (i.e. composite being - Body and Soul). But because God became man, while not giving up His Divine Nature, through the Person of Christ, God, the Son, suffered and died for us.

Again, like Apotheoun said, God in the Person of Christ Jesus was born, suffered and died in His human nature. Neither of His natures died (Natures don't die, People do), but it was IN His human nature to die - not in His Divine Nature.

[Jake Huether]

[quote]So basically catholics believe death is not the death? In the sense that it's not the end of existance. [/quote]

But death never meant the end of existance in totality. While our bodies may decompose, they still don't stop existing in their elements. And human souls are eternal, once brought into existence. This is a fact, otherwise there would be no hell or heaven.

[quote]So can any creature die really?[/quote]

Yes, all creatures die. And for most creatures, while their bodies decompose, their souls do stop existing (i.e. animals and plants).

[quote]Can souls be killed?[/quote]

This is a complex question. Human souls or animal souls?? and what do you mean by "killed"?? Stop existing? Human: No, animal: yes. Go to hell and suffer eternally? Human: Yes. animal: no.

[quote]Can they commit suicide?[/quote]

Almost same as above. Human or animal? end of existence or hell?

[quote]When angels and demons wage war, do they die?[/quote]

Depends. Because we're talking about eternal spirits, they don't die in the way that a human does at the end of life. But a spirit can die, as in go to eternal damnation. Demons are already dead in this sence. And in the begining, when war was waged in heaven, the angles faught and the deamons were cast to their death in hell.

[quote]What happens when they die (they go to Heaven?)?[/quote]

Angels are already in heaven. Demons are in hell.

[quote]Apparently God can die after you change the meaning of death.[/quote]

No one's changing the meaning of death:

[quote]Main Entry: death
Pronunciation: 'deth
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English deeth, from Old English dEath; akin to Old Norse dauthi death, deyja to die -- more at DIE
1 : a permanent cessation of all vital functions : the end of life -- compare BRAIN DEATH[/quote]

And it is at this point that we believe that the soul leaves the Body.

So if God becomes man in the Person of Christ Jesus, then death is possible for God in His humanity.

[curtins]

awsome jake- but id like to point out animals dont have souls only humans have souls- if animals had souls those souls would need to be nurished through the sacraments and there aint no church of animals lol

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='curtins' date='Jul 7 2005, 02:24 PM']whats logos?
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"In the beginning was the Word ([i]Logos[/i]), and the Word ([i]Logos[/i]) was with God, and the Word ([i]Logos[/i]) was God. . . . And the Word ([i]Logos[/i]) became flesh and dwelt among us." [John 1:1 and 14]

Jesus Christ is the Logos incarnate, the second person ([i]hypostasis[/i]) of the Holy Trinity, and the eternal Son of the eternal Father.

[Guest Eremite]

[quote name='curtins' date='Jul 7 2005, 05:39 PM']awsome jake- but id like to point out animals dont have souls  only humans have souls- if animals had souls those souls would need to be nurished through the sacraments and there aint no church of animals lol
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Not exactly. Animals have souls. But they do not have "rational" souls.

A soul is the animating principle of bodies.

The human soul is distinct from an animal soul in that it is also a spirit (ie, rational). The human soul is distinct from an angelic spirit in that it is also a soul (ie, the animation of a body).

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='curtins' date='Jul 7 2005, 05:39 PM']awsome jake- but id like to point out animals dont have souls  only humans have souls- if animals had souls those souls would need to be nurished through the sacraments and there aint no church of animals lol
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maybe animals never strayed away from what god intended, but i dont know.........some say animals exhibit homosexual behaviors. Maybe they arent perfect too just not subject to morality.

[Socrates]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Jul 7 2005, 06:44 PM']maybe animals never strayed away from what god intended, but i dont know.........some say animals exhibit homosexual behaviors. Maybe they arent perfect too just not subject to morality.
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Animals are subrational and cannot make moral choices. Only humans and angels can choose good or evil.

[curtins]

I was always under the impression that animals didnt have souls

so wait is logos just another name for Jesus?

[Socrates]

[quote name='curtins' date='Jul 7 2005, 06:51 PM']I was always under the impression that animals didnt have souls

so wait is logos just another name for Jesus?
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The Logos is the Second Person of the Holy Trinity (the Word of God). The Logos is eternal, and became incarnate as Jesus Christ. (The Word became flesh.)