conservative interpretation of scripture

[infinitelord1]

I was just thinking about the last supper...........i have been skeptical about the bread representing body and wine representing blood. I have just come to the conclusion that it must be the actual body and blood of christ. I guess it just took a while to sink into my think skull. A fellow phatmasser/friend of mine told me a while a go that jesus would have said "this is a symbol of my body and a symbol of my blood" if it were trully a symbol. But he didnt. To interpret this as a symbol would be without logic furthermore would be a liberal interpretation. If you interpret anything liberally that jesus said.......you can twist the bible in anyway you choose. So what about revelations? Do we interpret this symbollically? Or any thing else in the bible?

[avemaria40]

In the Bible, when Jesus spoke in parables, if the crowd didn't understand, he would explain. but when he talked about how if no one ate of his flesh and drank of his blood, they would not have life in them, the crowd freaked out but he didn't explain it. therefore, he must have been speaking literally, however, yes, you do interpret Revelations symbollically since it was written to comfort Christians undergoing persecution

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Reminds me of something Theodore of Mopsuestia said in the 5th century:
[quote]"When [Christ] gave the bread [b]he did not say, 'This is the symbol of my body[/b],' but, 'This is my body.' In the same way, when he gave the cup of his blood [b]he did not say, '‘This is the symbol of my blood[/b],' but, 'This is my blood'; for he wanted us to look upon the [Eucharistic elements] after their reception of grace and the coming of the Holy Spirit not according to their nature, but receive them as they are, the body and blood of our Lord" (Catechetical Homilies 5:1 [A.D. 428]).[/quote]

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='avemaria40' date='Jul 17 2005, 03:16 PM']In the Bible, when Jesus spoke in parables, if the crowd didn't understand, he would explain. but when he talked about how if no one ate of his flesh and drank of his blood, they would not have life in them, the crowd freaked out but he didn't explain it.  therefore, he must have been speaking literally, however, yes, you do interpret Revelations symbollically since it was written to comfort Christians undergoing persecution
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how do you know this? is it documented history? Even if so.......the history of jesus wasnt started to be recorded until like 100 years after his death.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote]"and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me. In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me." For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until He comes. [b]Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly.[/b] For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep."[/quote]
--1 Corinthians 11:24-30

Now note - when he speaks of bread, this does not automatically mean he meant physical bread. Jesus called himself the "bread of life", and we speak of recieveing our "daily bread" in the Our Father.

And I know of no bread that if you eat it while in sin, you eat yourself into damnation

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Jul 17 2005, 04:10 PM']how do you know this? is it documented history? Even if so.......the history of jesus wasnt started to be recorded until like 100 years after his death.
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Its in the Bible, and happens with many parables

[Melchisedec]

This is definitely a topic I want to revist when time permits. I've never quite grasped why we should eat christs flesh and blood.Sounds gross to me honestly.

[avemaria40]

basically, when Jesus gave us His Body and Blood, he was giving us the gift of Himself so we could be at One with Him, b/c like a couple is joined in the flesh through marriage, man's spirit is joined to God.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Jul 17 2005, 06:00 PM']This is definitely a topic I want to revist when time permits. I've never quite grasped why we should eat christs flesh and blood.Sounds gross to me honestly.
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That is the reason he gave us his whole self under the appearences of bread and wine, so that we wouldnt be "grossed out" so to speak.

[Quietfire]

Mind you also, he never once 'explained' what He was saying to those in the synogogue. What Jesus was saying was and is literal. That is why so many said, "this is difficult".

He reiterated it 7 times. Look it up....7 times He repeated himself, saying it very literally. There was absolutely no symbolism there.

As a result, all of His diciples walked out except the 12.

Jesus wasnt kidding here. He meant what He said and said what He meant.

Pax

[cmotherofpirl]

Many of his followers got up and walked away when he said it was his flesh and blood. For the jews the blood is life and they were forbidden to consume it.

Do you think they would have done that over a symbol?

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Quietfire' date='Jul 17 2005, 07:55 PM']He reiterated it 7 times.  Look it up....7 times He repeated himself, saying it very literally.  There was absolutely no symbolism there.
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Isnt 7 also the number that symbolizes perfection, like 7 days of the week that God created?

[Quietfire]

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='Jul 17 2005, 10:07 PM']Isnt 7 also the number that symbolizes perfection, like 7 days of the week that God created?
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Yup.

[Quietfire]

Maybe this will help.

[url="http://members.aol.com/SocratesMG/index10a.html"]the Believer's Test[/url]

It really digs into this particular subject.

Pax

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Jul 17 2005, 06:00 PM']
This is definitely a topic I want to revist when time permits. I've never quite grasped why we should eat christs flesh and blood.Sounds gross to me honestly.
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i would definetly eat jesus' flesh before i would eat yours

[ironmonk]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Jul 17 2005, 04:32 PM']I was just thinking about the last supper...........i have been skeptical about the bread representing body and wine representing blood. I have just come to the conclusion that it must be the actual body and blood of christ. I guess it just took a while to sink into my think skull. A fellow phatmasser/friend of mine told me a while a go that jesus would have said "this is a symbol of my body and a symbol of my blood" if it were trully a symbol. But he didnt. To interpret this as a symbol would be without logic furthermore would be a liberal interpretation. If you interpret anything liberally that jesus said.......you can twist the bible in anyway you choose. So what about revelations? Do we interpret this symbollically? Or any thing else in the bible?
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The Church is the only one who can properly interpret scripture. We laymen are not directly guided by the holy spirit in scripture. The Catholic Church leadership has Christ's promise that the Holy Spirit will guide it in all truth (St. John 14). Many verses in Scripture can have multiple meanings. There is a lot of info on Revelations written by the Early Church Fathers.... [url="http://www.NewAdvent.org/Fathers/"]http://www.NewAdvent.org/Fathers/[/url]

God Bless,
ironmonk

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Jul 17 2005, 09:36 PM']The Church is the only one who can properly interpret scripture. We laymen are not directly guided by the holy spirit in scripture. The Catholic Church leadership has Christ's promise that the Holy Spirit will guide it in all truth (St. John 14).  Many verses in Scripture can have multiple meanings. There is a lot of info on Revelations written by the Early Church Fathers.... [url="http://www.NewAdvent.org/Fathers/"]http://www.NewAdvent.org/Fathers/[/url]

God Bless,
ironmonk
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i went to a catholic elementary school in burton, MI called Holy Redeemer..........the K of C would cook us pancake breakfasts for us once a year........have you been forkin out pancakes to young children again ironmonk? LOL.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Jul 17 2005, 08:00 PM']This is definitely a topic I want to revist when time permits. I've never quite grasped why we should eat christs flesh and blood.Sounds gross to me honestly.
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Study of Scripture could help you understand it.

[b]John 6:52 [/b]

The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?"
[b]53 [/b]
Jesus said to them, [b]"Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.[/b]
[b]54 [/b][b]Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. [/b]
[b]55 [/b]For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
[b]56 [/b]Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
[b]57 [/b]Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.
[b]58 [/b]This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever."


All Christians eat Christ's flesh... if not, then they are not really following the way of Christ.


[b]Ignatius of Antioch [/b]
"I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible" (Letter to the Romans 7:3 [A.D. 110]).

"Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes" (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110]).


[b]Justin Martyr [/b]
"We call this food Eucharist, and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration [i.e., has received baptism] and is thereby living as Christ enjoined. For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus" (First Apology 66 [A.D. 151]).


[b]Irenaeus [/b]

"If the Lord were from other than the Father, how could he rightly take bread, which is of the same creation as our own, and confess it to be his body and affirm that the mixture in the cup is his blood?" (Against Heresies 4:33–32 [A.D. 189]).

"He has declared the cup, a part of creation, to be his own blood, from which he causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, he has established as his own body, from which he gives increase unto our bodies. When, therefore, the mixed cup [wine and water] and the baked bread receives the Word of God and becomes the Eucharist, the body of Christ, and from these the substance of our flesh is increased and supported, how can they say that the flesh is not capable of receiving the gift of God, which is eternal life—flesh which is nourished by the body and blood of the Lord, and is in fact a member of him?" (ibid., 5:2).




Find more bible stuff here:
[url="http://www.scripturecatholic.com/the_eucharist.html"]http://www.scripturecatholic.com/the_eucharist.html[/url]



God Bless,
ironmonk

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Jul 17 2005, 09:19 PM']
[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Jul 17 2005, 06:00 PM']
This is definitely a topic I want to revist when time permits. I've never quite grasped why we should eat christs flesh and blood.Sounds gross to me honestly.
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i would definetly eat jesus' flesh before i would eat yours
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Well...uhm..thank you...LOL

[Paladin D]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Jul 18 2005, 09:37 AM']Well...uhm..thank you...LOL 
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Well... I'm a cannibal.