Carrie Posted November 19, 2003 Author Posted November 19, 2003 Thanks guys! I've got the most supportive phamily ever!
cmotherofpirl Posted November 19, 2003 Posted November 19, 2003 THe kitten idea was wonderful. Its always appalling to me that you can't kill an animal, but you can kill a baby.
Carrie Posted November 19, 2003 Author Posted November 19, 2003 THe kitten idea was wonderful. Its always appalling to me that you can't kill an animal, but you can kill a baby. Anna is a genius! ;)
Good Friday Posted November 20, 2003 Posted November 20, 2003 Carrie, my intuition tells me that to win the other two girls over, you must first win over your Wiccan friend. In my mind, she strikes me as the "leader type" and your two friends strike me as the "sheep type." Why? Because she has arguments for her position, but the other two cop out by saying "that's just my opinion" or "I don't believe everything the Church teaches." Unwillingness to back down is the earmark of a leader, whereas wishy-washyness and weak arguments are the earmarks of followers. My guess is that if your Wiccan friend turns to the pro-life side, the other two will not be far behind. If I were you, I would concentrate on her. That said, I think you need to keep re-emphasizing that the baby in the womb is an actual human life. And you need to keep reminding her of the Wiccan Rede: "An ye harm none, do as thou wilt." I'm convinced that this can be won even while she's Wiccan. My other piece of advice: Don't harp on it. Don't talk about it every time you're with them. And don't let this wreck your friendships. If you talk about it every time you're with them, they're likely to get tired of it and either tune you out or stop beinf friends with you. And don't let this wreck your friendships, as atrocious as their support for abortion is. There is far more you can do as a friend to them than you could do if you severed ties with them. I'm not saying never talk about it, and I'm not saying back down. I'm just saying don't make it the issue of your friendship. It's crucial that the friendships survive so you can continue to dialogue about this. I think you're doing an amesome job, Carrie. God bless your efforts.
marielapin Posted November 20, 2003 Posted November 20, 2003 Carrie, may God bless you in your efforts. I hope that if/when placed in the same situation I would be as courageous as you.
Carrie Posted November 20, 2003 Author Posted November 20, 2003 (edited) Thanks so much Good Friday and Marielapin! I'm taking your advice to heart and I will not harp on it all the time or let it ruin our friendship (we do have to work together, after all). Even though they have some bad misconceptions, they are still good people. I don't think they think any less of me for standing up for my views because I've been invited along to lunch again. I definitely agree that more good will be done if we continue to be friends. Today's topic of conversation will be a little lighter I'm sure. Good Friday, you're right when you say the Wiccan girl is a leader. She is very outgoing and strong in her opinions. She is a go-getter type and seems to not be afraid of very much. This is very different from me, because I am a very quiet person (even if I seem like I talk alot on PM) who hates to cause waves. I think if she is swayed, the other two will be more more easily swayed. In any case, I'm leaving all my pamphlets and information by my desk. I may not have to always mention it, but the reminder will be there when they come over to speak to me about something. Marielapin, I'm really not courageous! I'm more of the quiet, don't say anything type. I just couldn't stand to hear the things that were being said. I spoke up more out of anger than courage. But thank you for the support. Edited November 20, 2003 by Carrie
marielapin Posted November 20, 2003 Posted November 20, 2003 Marielapin, I'm really not courageous! I'm more of the quiet, don't say anything type. I just couldn't stand to hear the things that were being said. I spoke up more out of anger than courage. But thank you for the support. You sound a lot like me, Carrie! I usually don't speak up about tough issues until I get angry/upset. At work, especially, I try to not discuss these issues because there are some rather vocal (and volatile) folks I work with.
nikkan_hanil Posted November 20, 2003 Posted November 20, 2003 Carrie, next time . . . bring pictures . . . http://www.priestsforlife.org/resources/ab...mages/index.htm Eiuuhgh, man!! That's ****ing sick!! I'm against it even more. :angry:
Carrie Posted November 20, 2003 Author Posted November 20, 2003 Eiuuhgh, man!! That's ****ing sick!! I'm against it even more. That's the point ;)
nikkan_hanil Posted November 20, 2003 Posted November 20, 2003 You forgot the one caveat to all of that - "If it harms no one." Well, c'mon! "If it Harm no one?" Can they not see a soul inside that baby? I mean, if they're all into spirits why don't they see one inside of something that LIVES? I mean, they see spirits in trees, animals, the moon, Mother Nature and all that cr@p, but in another human being? Simply because it not in it's full physical form? If there's one thing that makes me sick, it's spiritual ignorance, and believe me: this makes me sick!
nikkan_hanil Posted November 20, 2003 Posted November 20, 2003 You know, it's always very interesting to turn the argument around and discuss the baby as if it was a kitten or a puppy. I mean it! Really, ask if a mother cat was giving birth, and one of the feline fetuses head popped out, would it be ok to crush the skull and remove the brains...as long as the rest of the kitten's body hadn't emerged from its mother yet? Oh, how sick! How gross! Who could do such a thing to a poor, defenseless little kitten?!!! Then, you've won the argument. Yes!! Save kittens...and babies!! :D B)
Carrie Posted November 20, 2003 Author Posted November 20, 2003 You sound a lot like me, Carrie! I usually don't speak up about tough issues until I get angry/upset. At work, especially, I try to not discuss these issues because there are some rather vocal (and volatile) folks I work with. You work for the military. I'd guess some of the people you work with are alot more used to being vocal and volatile than most civilian job settings. I'm sure working on cool planes more than makes up for the not-so-nice people at work! I still think that is very very cool! :D
Carrie Posted November 20, 2003 Author Posted November 20, 2003 Well, c'mon! "If it Harm no one?" Can they not see a soul inside that baby? I mean, if they're all into spirits why don't they see one inside of something that LIVES? I mean, they see spirits in trees, animals, the moon, Mother Nature and all that cr@p, but in another human being? Simply because it not in it's full physical form? If there's one thing that makes me sick, it's spiritual ignorance, and believe me: this makes me sick! Well, that's the big problem. She doesn't recognize a "fetus" as a baby. That's got to be the first thing she changes her mind about, so the rest can fall into place.
marielapin Posted November 20, 2003 Posted November 20, 2003 You work for the military. I'd guess some of the people you work with are alot more used to being vocal and volatile than most civilian job settings. I'm sure working on cool planes more than makes up for the not-so-nice people at work! I still think that is very very cool! :D Its actually the other civilians and contractors that are very vocal/volatile. The military I work with are the cool headed ones. And they are pilots. Does anyone see the irony of this? and its not that they aren't nice most of the time, its just that they can't control their tempers when they are in a bad mood and someone says something un-PC to them. Like I remember during the whole Catholic priest scandal one person in particular started saying that all f-ing child molestors should be killed in a painful way, and started saying that the Church was the cause of all of it. ouch. I stayed far far away, like everyone else.
Carrie Posted November 21, 2003 Author Posted November 21, 2003 Hmm, that's interesting Marielapin. I suppose it's because the military guys are so well disciplined. Maybe we should all get some good training! I know lots of people who could use it (including myself at times). I would have reacted the same way you did with the person who was bashing priests and the Church. That kind of anger is plain scary.
Mary's Knight, La Posted November 30, 2003 Posted November 30, 2003 hey i'm bumping this because I heard a very interesting point against I.D.E. (the medical term for partial-birth abortion) from a guest on one of our radio programs. We know that apart from intervention life stops when the heart stops this means that anytime a heart-beat is detectable we can *guarantee* there's life based on science alone. A heartbeat is detectable after 17 days if i remember correctly. Therefore from a completely secular point of view it is still killing after 17 days. This would make not just partial-birth abortions but most abortions murder.
Carrie Posted December 1, 2003 Author Posted December 1, 2003 Thanks for that point! I'll be sure to use it!!
Muschi Posted December 1, 2003 Posted December 1, 2003 Carrie and all- God bless you all for caring about life. All I know regarding this topic is that when I became pregnant in 1989, I had alot of trouble with this pregnancy from the beginning. First, I didn't even want to be pregnant! My career plans were going to be ruined. Deep inside, I hoped the pregnancy would not last...............I almost had my wish several times as I continued to bleed quite heavily throughout the entire pregancey almost to the point of hemmoraging. I would be taken to the ER several times on base,(my ex was in the Army at the time and we were in Germany,) and they would tell me I'm ok, my blood test results were good and my cervix still closed. I actually used to think to myself "darn!" That is how selfish I was. Do you know what changed me? It was around the 13th or 14th week when I had an ultra-sound and had fetal heart monitoring and heard with my own ears the sound of my very own baby's heart-beat. What awe! How sublime! There really WAS life within me. From that moment on I wanted my baby with all of my heart and felt badly for being so selfish. Sadly, by the time I went for my 16th week check-up, no heart-beat could be heard and I learned that my baby did die inside me. I'm sure you all could imagine my grief and guilt. Then I got pregnant again two years later and lost this child early around the 9th week. (I knew it as soon as I got out of bed one morning and felt as if a knife had gone through me if you know what I mean.) I was 19 and 21 respectively at the time of each pregnancy. I am now 34 years old and have grieved for these babies since. The only thing that seems to have helped is having given them gender-neutral names and recording them in the book of prayers for the dead this past November. I am surprised I didn't think of it last year but then I am still a fairly new Catholic. (two years this coming Easter.) So, needless to say, when I think about or hear of abortion now, I'm especially grieved because I totally realize that the "embryo" or "fetus" is NOT merely tissue but real, actual LIFE!!! I hope this story helps someone. ps. I actually did consider an abortion for my second pregnancy but at the last moment decided I couldn't go through with it. I wasn't Catholic at this time nor did I have any idea that I ever would be someday. Now I appreciate life and am extremely greatful for it. Maybe my "babies" have been praying for me. I hope so!- Muschi
littleflower+JMJ Posted December 1, 2003 Posted December 1, 2003 thank you so very much muschi for sharing your story with us. my prayers are with you. +JMJ pax christi
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