Civil Rights

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Jul 22 2005, 01:40 PM']The argument can be made that the increase in security at the airport has done nothing to deter terrorists and has been for to placate travellers. 
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Actually an argument can't be made to support that contention, but certainly one can state that as a matter of opinion.

[Carrie]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Jul 22 2005, 05:40 PM']But it absolutely is giving them victory by adding to our fear. 
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This is [b]exactly[/b] the point of terrorism.

Terrorism is not about the killing, although massive deaths are a big bonus to them.

Terrorism is about instilling fear and terror in people.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Carrie' date='Jul 22 2005, 01:44 PM']Terrorism is not about the killing, although massive deaths are a big bonus to them.
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I beg to differ, terrorism is most certainly about killing people.

[Carrie]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 22 2005, 05:46 PM']I beg to differ, terrorism is most certainly about killing people.
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It is not the main objective.

The main objective is to terrorize people.

What better way to terrorize than to cause deaths? But the deaths are not the main goal.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Carrie' date='Jul 22 2005, 01:50 PM']It is not the main objective.
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Are you really that naive? Of course the primary purpose is to kill people when you blow up a bomb on a subway; the secondary effect is to instill fear. I must admit that I find some of your comments on this subject rather offensive.

[Carrie]

I'm not sure how I've offended you when I've offered no personal comments towards you.

Meanwhile, you've called me naive and included my feelings on my family in this matter.

Can we not stick to debating objectively?

[Carrie]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 22 2005, 05:52 PM']Are you really that naive?  Of course the primary purpose is to kill people when you blow up a bomb on a subway; the secondary effect is to instill fear.  I must admit that I find some of your comments on this subject rather offensive.
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The primary purpose is to instill so much fear into a society that they cannot properly function, which weakens them, and makes them vulnerable in every aspect possible.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Carrie' date='Jul 22 2005, 01:58 PM']I'm not sure how I've offended you when I've offered no personal comments towards you. 

Meanwhile, you've called me naive and included my feelings on my family in this matter.

Can we not stick to debating objectively?
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I didn't say I was "personally" offended, I said that some of your comments are offensive.

Some of what you've said could be compared to saying that Hitler put the Jews in concentration camps in order to purify German culture, and only secondarily to commit genocide.

The primary goal of a terrorist attack is to kill innocent people, as many people as possible, and by that act of mass murder to frighten others.

[Carrie]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 22 2005, 06:02 PM']Some of what you've said could be compared to saying that Hitler put the Jews in concentration camps in order to purify German culture, and only secondarily to commit genocide.[/quote]

Now [b]that[/b] is offensive to me.

[quote]The primary goal of a terrorist attack is to kill innocent people, as many people as possible, and by that act of mass murder to frighten others.
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Read my last post please.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Carrie' date='Jul 22 2005, 02:05 PM']Now [b]that[/b] is offensive to me.
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Good, then I have made my point. The murder of people is offensive and must not be reduced to some politically correct comments about trying to primarily create fear.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Carrie' date='Jul 22 2005, 02:05 PM']
Read my last post please.
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I read it, and you're quite simply in error. Terrorism is about killing people, and by that act instilling fear. It is murder, and I won't let you reduce it to something else.

[Carrie]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 22 2005, 06:06 PM']Good, then I have made my point.  The murder of people is offensive and must not be reduced to some politically correct comments about trying to primarily create fear.
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Not actually.

I never insinuated that the death of terror victims wasn't muder and wasn't offensive to all people.

What I simply stated is the [b]primary[/b] goal of the terrorists is to create such fear that a society can no longer function.

That creates much more destruction and chaos than one terror attack ever could.

You need to look at the big picture.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Carrie' date='Jul 22 2005, 02:09 PM']What I simply stated is the [b]primary[/b] goal of the terrorists is to create such fear that a society can no longer function.
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You are wrong, the primary goal is to kill. Making excuses for murder is reprehensible.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Carrie' date='Jul 22 2005, 02:09 PM']You need to look at the big picture.
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The big picture is that we are presently in the opening stages of a world war. The sooner you recognize that the better.

[jmjtina]

Some schools don't even allow you to have a backpack.

I don't know. I see what your saying Carrie, it's not likely to prevent the act 100%, but it might help.

As for privacy, I'm also worried that the gov't is going to take away our privacy little by little.

However, checking backpacks IMHO, especially since the London bombings, is a pre-cautionary. Better safe than sorry. As a teacher, when things are being stolen, I start checking backpacks before they leave my room. Does it take alot of time to do? Yes. Will I get everything? Probably not. BUT, Does it does stop the theif from stealing? It actually does at least not as much anymore and less stuff. And the others are quick to report if they saw something in someone elses backpack and almost always I find my little felon. It's not only for me, but for the classroom as a whole because i emphasize the "classroom family".

If they are only checking backpacks, I'm not gonna complain.

As far as clear backpacks, as a teacher, I would rather have the kids with backpacks that didn't have clear stuff. Why? Because it's literally a trashcan.

As far as terroism goes, at school the primary goal is fear. Terroism on a national scale is killing and bombings. Either way, the main point is that terroism IS killing people. And when people are being killed and bombed, SOME action must be taken to ensure the saftey of those at risk.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jul 22 2005, 04:10 PM']You are wrong, the primary goal is to kill.  Making excuses for murder is reprehensible.
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Whoa!!

I've read through this three times now. Where are you reading that anyone is making excuses for murder?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Jul 22 2005, 02:20 PM']Whoa!!

I've read through this three times now.  Where are you reading that anyone is making excuses for murder?
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I'm glad that you took the time to read the thread through three times, but you see I hold that the terrorists are primarily concerned with killing people, while Carrie believes that they simply want to scare people. Hopefully I have cleared up the confusion for you.

To reduce their murderous acts to acts of fear, rather than to see them as what they are, the killing of innocent people, is offensive to me. Perhaps it isn't to you, but it is to me.

God bless,
Todd

[Carrie]

[quote]You are wrong, the primary goal is to kill. Making excuses for murder is reprehensible.[/quote]

In no way, shape, or form did I make excuses for murder.

I have been personally affected by terrorism, so please do not assume that I do not consider it murder.

I lost a friend in the 9/11 attacks. Of course I believe that he was murdered, but my personal feelings do not change what terrorism is actually about.

Why do you think the World Trade Center was attacked? Because it was the financial center of the world. Terrorists hoped that the destruction of the WTC would paralyze our economy so much that we would literally be in a state of massive chaos.

If the goal was sheer numbers of dead, why not first attack after 9 am when the number of people in the buildings would have been much greater? Had the first attack happened just 15 minutes later, the number of people killed could have easily been 20,000 or more (considering approximately 40,000 worked in the buildings) instead of the 3,000 people killed.

Since you won't listen to me (I am reprehensible, after all right?), let's leave it to the experts shall we?

From: Terrorism with weapons of mass destruction: Chemical, biological, nuclear, radiological, and explosive agents.
Series Title: Review of psychiatry; vol. 22 no. 1

Author(s): Ursano, Robert J., Norwood, Ann E., Fullerton, Carol S.,
Holloway, Harry C., Hall, Molly.

[quote]The use of weapons of mass destruction by terrorists gained international attention after the Japanese cult Aum Shinrikyo released sarin gas in the Tokyo subway system in 1995. Concern was heightened when it was learned that the group had also released anthrax and had attempted to obtain the Ebola virus. In the U.S., the terrorist attacks of September 11th, 2001, and the letters containing anthrax spores that were mailed to media outlets and government officials in October that same year shattered Americans' belief that they were immune from such events. Although the terrorist attacks themselves were circumscribed, the psychological impact was widespread, resulting in a variety of psychological responses throughout the world. [b]Because the ultimate goals of terrorism are psychological and behavioral[/b], psychiatrists can make valuable contributions in helping their communities prepare for and respond to such attacks.[/quote]

From: Are terrorists mentally deranged?

Ruby, Charles L.; Analyses of Social Issues & Public Policy (ASAP), Vol 2(1), Dec 2002. pp. 15-26.


[quote]Recent terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center towers and the Pentagon have accentuated the threat of terrorism. However, it appears that the attackers are popularly thought of as mentally deranged individuals who are evil. This article suggests that such an understanding is a misperception of these people and may interfere with an adequate response to prevent future attacks. The article reviews the extant literature on psychological theories of terrorism and concludes that terrorists are not dysfunctional or pathological; [b]rather, it suggests that terrorism is basically another form of politically motivated violence that is perpetrated by rational, lucid people who have valid motives. The only real difference between terrorism and conventional military action is one of strategy. [/b]Terrorists lack the necessary resources to wage war in furtherance of their political goals.[/quote]


While I don't have this book at my disposal right now for quick referencing, I suggest you take a look at this as well if possible

[u]Understanding terrorism: Psychosocial roots, consequences, and interventions.[/u]
Ditzler, Thomas F., Dept of Psychiatry, Tripler Army Medical Ctr, Honolulu, HI, US

[benedictaj]

Thank you Carrie.

I don't really have an opinion, but I do think that the major aim of terrorists is to terrorise. Now, I don't live in America, so I'm not coming from the same point as you.

Although, I do think that making school kids have clear bags is a bit too much....

[Jaime]

[quote name='Carrie' date='Jul 22 2005, 06:42 PM']In no way, shape, or form did I make excuses for murder.

I have been personally affected by terrorism, so please do not assume that I do not consider it murder. 

I lost a friend in the 9/11 attacks.  Of course I believe that he was murdered, but my personal feelings do not change what terrorism is actually about.

Why do you think the World Trade Center was attacked?  Because it was the financial center of the world.  Terrorists hoped that the destruction of the WTC would paralyze our economy so much that we would literally be in a state of massive chaos.

If the goal was sheer numbers of dead, why not first attack after 9 am when the number of people in the buildings would have been much greater?  Had the first attack happened just 15 minutes later, the number of people killed could have easily been 20,000 or more (considering approximately 40,000 worked in the buildings) instead of the 3,000 people killed.

Since you won't listen to me (I am reprehensible, after all right?), let's leave it to the experts shall we?

From: Terrorism with weapons of mass destruction: Chemical, biological, nuclear, radiological, and explosive agents.
Series Title: Review of psychiatry; vol. 22 no. 1

Author(s): Ursano, Robert J., Norwood, Ann E., Fullerton, Carol S.,
Holloway, Harry C., Hall, Molly.
From: Are terrorists mentally deranged?

Ruby, Charles L.; Analyses of Social Issues & Public Policy (ASAP), Vol 2(1), Dec 2002. pp. 15-26.
While I don't have this book at my disposal right now for quick referencing, I suggest you take a look at this as well if possible

[u]Understanding terrorism: Psychosocial roots, consequences, and interventions.[/u]
Ditzler, Thomas F., Dept of Psychiatry, Tripler Army Medical Ctr, Honolulu, HI, US
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Hmm

Doesn't sound very naive to me....